how much does it take for weak pairs to fold

craigcu12

with so many reraises and a shove on the flop how can this person not see a premium pair

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Bihitas	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£5.69
craigcu12	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.71
	Your hole cards	A A
hefty122	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£2.85
bevcal63	Raise		£0.08	£0.18	£10.03
stax2227	Fold
step7	Raise		£0.24	£0.42	£10.95
Bihitas	Fold
craigcu12	Raise		£0.36	£0.78	£3.35
hefty122	Fold
bevcal63	Raise		£0.48	£1.26	£9.55
step7	Call		£0.32	£1.58	£10.63
craigcu12	Raise		£0.32	£1.90	£3.03
bevcal63	Call		£0.16	£2.06	£9.39
step7	Call		£0.16	£2.22	£10.47
Flop
		8 6 10
craigcu12	All-in		£3.03	£5.25	£0.00
bevcal63	Call		£3.03	£8.28	£6.36
step7	Fold
craigcu12	Show	A A
bevcal63	Show	7 7
Turn
		9
River
		9
bevcal63	Win	Straight to the 10	£7.65		£14.01

BorinLoner

Your pre-flop raises practically tell everyone at the table that you have AA. Stop clicking the min-raise button.

You somehow managed to make a 6-bet without getting it all-in. That should not happen. Work on your bet sizing - I think I've said that before. Use this as a starting point for your pre-flop betting:

Opening raise: 3x + 1 per limper.
3-bet: 3x the original raise.
4-bet: 2.5x the 3-bet (or all-in, depending on stacks and the size of the pot. If your 4-bet is 35% of your remaining stack or more, just shove)

If you're making a 5-bet, it should just be a shove because there should already be a huge amount in the pot. (Whether you should ever 5-bet any hand pre-flop is another question which you should think about)

That's just a very rough guide. At NL4 people often advocate raising much bigger than this and only playing premium hands. You absolutely must not be clicking min-raise repeatedly pre-flop in cash games.

In tournaments, we can make our opening raises a min-raise if nobody else has limped before us. In cash this is a bad idea. Even in MTT's our 3-bets or 4-bets should never be min-raises.

step7

4 bet bigger next time, would have got rid of me with KQo waiting to flop big and stack you - it was pretty obvious u had JJ+. The other player was calling anyways (we'd just seen them call off 60BB with 88 pre).

Again you falling into the "I might scare them off" trap - if we had both folded, so be it - you pick up a nice pot right there.

A bigger 4-bet would have made shoving the flop easier, 3quid into 2 was clunky. Shoving pre would have been over the top, you're not looking for 77 to fold! Other than that just chalk up another cooler, UL.

BorinLoner

Your question also seems to suggest that you wanted your opponent to fold his 77. WHY? He's miles behind when the money goes in. That's great news.

Sometimes the worst hand wins. It's annoying when it happens against us but that's the game. Be happy to make good decisions and don't worry about the results. If you keep making good decisions, those results will come...

smitalol

In Response to Re: how much does it take for weak pairs to fold:

Use this as a starting point for your pre-flop betting: Opening raise: 3x + 1 per limper. 3-bet: 3x the original raise. 4-bet: 2.5x the 3-bet
Posted by BorinLoner

i would argue that this is wrong

20p minimum, then +1BB per limper
3bet sizing depends on position

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: how much does it take for weak pairs to fold:

In Response to Re: how much does it take for weak pairs to fold : i would argue that this is wrong 20p minimum, then +1BB per limper 3bet sizing depends on position
Posted by smitalol

It's a guide. It's definitely not "wrong" but you don't have to follow it precisely. There are many people that play NL4 that like to make bigger raises.

3-betting to 3x the original raise is also pretty standard. If you want to vary from that, there's no problem. Just be sure why you're doing it and make a bet you feel best accomplishes your goals. The min-3-bet is almost never a good idea.

step7

I've found you can't stick with any "standard" - you have to react to the table. Borin's figures are optimal against reasonable players who understand risk/reward for their starting hands - most NL4ers don't. You sit at a nitty table and you may not get any action with 5x opens. There are spots where I can steal the blinds from multitabling rocks all night with 2.5x opens. They point is there is no right or wrong, you just have to adjust.

smitalol

In Response to Re: how much does it take for weak pairs to fold:

I've found you can't stick with any "standard" - you have to react to the table. Borin's figures are optimal against reasonable players who understand risk/reward for their starting hands - most NL4ers don't. You sit at a nitty table and you may not get any action with 5x opens. There are spots where I can steal the blinds from multitabling rocks all night with 2.5x opens. They point is there is no right or wrong, you just have to adjust.
Posted by step7

exactly

the word 'standard' is weird yet people seem to throw it about to explain away things

3x opening at these levels against the types of people that play them is too small unless you like going 4way+ to the flop with QQ+

if someone is going to pay £1 near enough every hand to see a flop and you hold premiums, charge them it