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Tracking software and reviewing your own hands/performance
Firstly, apologies if I'm being naive and there is some software that works with Sky - if that's the case can someone let me know the name?
Otherwise, is it a conscious decision by SkyPoker to not allow tracking software to work with its site, or is it simply that operating on a unique (?) software platform means it isn't possible/profitable for the tracking software to work with SP? If it's the latter, I guess that means it will probably never be available (well, unless SP create it themselves as a way to earn a few more £)
I'm not going to make any claim that the stats on other players could be used by me as anything more than highligting who has won a good wedge of me and should be avoided when I'm selecting a table - but it would really helpful to be able to pick up my entire hand history and view it through a database that helps me see profit/loss by session, by hand, by position etc.
Otherwise, is it a conscious decision by SkyPoker to not allow tracking software to work with its site, or is it simply that operating on a unique (?) software platform means it isn't possible/profitable for the tracking software to work with SP? If it's the latter, I guess that means it will probably never be available (well, unless SP create it themselves as a way to earn a few more £)
I'm not going to make any claim that the stats on other players could be used by me as anything more than highligting who has won a good wedge of me and should be avoided when I'm selecting a table - but it would really helpful to be able to pick up my entire hand history and view it through a database that helps me see profit/loss by session, by hand, by position etc.
Comments
Morning Aces.
It is a conscious & deliberate decision by the Business NOT to permit Third Party Tracking Software on this Site.
That has always been their stance, & as far as I am aware, they have no plans to review that strategy.
shakinaces, if you look around at the other sites out there, and compare the ones that have HUDs to the ones that don't, it's pretty easy to see that those w/o are still flourishing with a solid recreational player base. (at least in the cash games anyway)
Getting a HUD or other tracking software to become a better poker player isn't the way to do so. You become lazy and dependant on perfect information, in a game where it's all about the opposite. Gathering as much information as you can, as concisely and as accurate as you can, and exploiting your opponents accordingly. The minute you introduce HUDs, everyone quickly trends to an unexploitable strategy, playing X amount of hands preflop, X for a 3bet, X number of cbets, etc. Games start to die off, regs stop playing each other because they already know one anothers stats and history.
A HUD won't neccessarily make you a 'better' poker player, just less exploitable. It's the difference between cramming all of the test material the night before an exam, trying to remember as much as of it as possible, compared to someone who's spent the last year learning the text inside out. One of those guys won't be able to apply what they've learnt, and without the revision papers, is total screwed. The other will not only have solid fundamentals of the topic, but will be able to use their knowledge in different, similar scenarios in the future.
And what the heck, for those that are interested, why I think HUDs are bad.
"- Just look at the sites that don't allow HUDs. Games are incredibly soft, with a copious amount of recreational players still there. Tables arn't reg-filled bumhunting fests. Rec'ers don't go broke as quick, and they feel more comfortable playing on a site that isn't chocka full of ABC-regmonkeys that rely on software to do a majority of the work for them.
- HUDs are only in the self-interest of the site, and the regs wanting to use them against the less experienced players. They increase your winrate vs them , and allow you to crush them quicker, while stopping regs from playing each other due to all that information on each other already being there (they instantly know if you're good/bad.) The EV in reg v reg battles is minimal at best, b/c everyone knows each others frequencies, and you're only a couple of clicks away from finding out whether someone's exploitable or not.
- If you can play more tables with a HUD, have masses of information given to you on a plate, and have software telling you where you're losing money... how can it take more skill to play with a HUD?
'We get given more information, so it takes more skill to interpret that information, derrrrp'
Information that you would have previous had to work for? Statistics that are given to you with 100% accuracy, that would be borderline impossible on your own? Information that is out there regardless of whether you have you a HUD or not?
Using a HUD doesn't mean there's more info for you to analyse, it's just saved you time, effort, the skills to research and coalate correctly, not to mention the software that comes with it that allows you to look at spots where you're losing EV over XXXXX hands.
Poker is a game of information, and what people do with it, combined with a solid foundation of logic and analysis. If you give people all the information they need on a platter, the game isn't poker, it's reading off stats playing like a robot.
It's frustrating to see regs kidding themselves that it takes some innate skill to read HUD stats, and interpret them correctly. If it were just a tool and not an aid, your winrate/100bb wouldn't increase when you use a HUD, just your ability to play more tables. And you seriously want to debate that everyone who uses a HUD knows exactly how to gather their own information, or fix their own leaks regardless?
Heck, I used to play 200nl 6m on stars, w/o a HUD, and I was a solid winning player (sick brag, ikr?). But when I got told (from someone using a HUD) that my VPIP was somewhere around the 35% region, I pi**ed myself laughing. That intraspection, that I wouldn't have had otherwise without HUDs, only led my winrate to increase even further. People DON'T naturally have the ability to realise their own mistakes, or not to let their ego and the personal side of the game cloud their judgement when it comes to accurately gathering or using information. With a HUD, you let those people off the hook, and instead of having to judge for yourself where ones leaks are and how best to take advantage of them, you get given a perfect stat sheet of all of their exploitable tendancies, as well as your own, that you can adjust accordingly to.
HUD's, great for your short-term winrate, but atrocious for the longevity of the poker economy."
HUD's, great for your short-term winrate, but atrocious for the longevity of the poker economy."
Sorry Smitalos
What does this mean? Whose economy? Smitalos? Sky? Pokeri n general? Maybe no HUDs suit your play because you see that you can gain a greater win rate. I'll let you fight it out with the others who think exactly the same. I've watched a couple of your sweats on Yt plus your biog of how you almost went bust then built up your BR etc. Was this down to a lack of info? Who is to say? We all make judgements of what went wrong but who really knows in retrospect? BTW, i did kind of enjoy 'em but have you got to swear and call your opps childish names? It takes away from what could be good analysis imo. You are a confident player. Truth has it that without that and, some would say arrogance, you'd be less likely to play to such a level where you play HU with someone for £2k.
Possibly the fact that as you say, you've never read a book on poker or been on a training site which personally, standing from the outside looking in, is rather naive as poker seems to evolve continually, you may find a HUd which DOES give you a detailed history of your opponents play as somewhat spilling the beans for the less 'instinctive'. That's not the end, as it then needs a knowledgeable way of assessing these statistics so that you can form winning plays. The facts are the facts. How you use them is another thing. What a person sees happening over 5 orbits may be completely different to theor statistics but if everyone else has them on the site you are playing then i do feel that you would be losing out disregarding them. Knowledge is power. Using that knowledge correctly is another thing.
Variety is there to suit all. SKY have taken this stance because itis a niche which works for them ie attracting players who do not want HUDs in their games and costs in £ plus other stuff. It's certainly isn't a 'poker economy' decision, whatever that means. It's a business decision to attract certain players in significant numbers, surely?
Not like you can give a HUD to a new player for example, and they will become a winning player.
You need to know how to use the stats alongside your own stats
Like what's the best way to expolit a high 3/b fold percentage
or a fold to 3/b percentage which is high
HUDS are not rocket science, but they do require a lot of training to make them worthwhile
Also I do think they can still have some level in them
But it's like all poker
if you play like you can see oppo's cards then that's good )
If you think that oppo knows what you have, then have something else )
If you play in a way where oppo knows what cards you have, then do something else )
Smit does make a great point though, they will make you less exploitable unless your playing against better players who will expolit you becasue your playing in a way that you think is exploitable
poker, it adapts - and so do good players -
re: Smitalos - I concur with everything you write. Although, to be trutful I can't imagine ever playing at a level where the HUD makes any significant difference to the way I play.
Most meaningfully, I get the impression that it takes a massive amount of fun out of playing - not an issue if you are playing, say, NL100 as a way of earning a living and just want to earn enough to pay the bills, more of an issue for us recreational players that want to improve, but play for the enjoyment of the game.
When playing on another site I was running a trial of one of the programmes and normally turned the HUD off, at the level I play it was more a case of tracking my own performance. I struggle to really make good use of the hand history on Sky.
But hey ho, make good use of it I shall try and, as posted on the cash champ thread, the learning afforded to me by playing stupid quantity of hands (for me) versus a bunch of more talented regular players is seemingly proving the best learning tool available to me currently!