Pocket Queen to a rerasie

darryn1973

Hi All

Can you ever consider pocket Queens to a re-raise.

Can you ever consider pocket Queens to a Jack high board.

with his re-raise has he always QQ,KK or has he ever get ACE,KING

darryn1973	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£11.23
villain	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£15.55
jim310831	Sit out
	Your hole cards	Q Q
who_me	Fold
supercrazy	Fold
rancid	Fold
darryn1973	Raise		£0.25	£0.40	£10.98
Villain	Raise		£0.80	£1.20	£14.75
darryn1973	Raise		£1.20	£2.40	£9.78
Villain	Raise		£3.30	£5.70	£11.45
darryn1973	Call		£2.70	£8.40	£7.08
Flop
		2 9 J
darryn1973	Check
Villain	Bet		£4.20	£12.60	£7.25
darryn1973	All-in		£7.08	£19.68	£0.00
Villain	Call		£2.88	£22.56	£4.37
darryn1973	Show	Q Q
Villain	Show	A A
Turn
		J
River
		3
Villian	Win	Two Pairs, Aces and Jacks	£21.16

rancid

fold pre you only have QQ )

step7

Depends on the villain/table. QQ not the worsed stack off in the world, you could be racing flush draw/flush draw+over, depends on your stomach for variance? Plan for the hand would have been better? If you plan to stack off post why not reraise and stack off pre?

craigcu12

if the villian is loose then your play was fine
if the villian was tight then it might have been better to call his first raise preflop then on the flop do a VB/F

jugglegeek

It's kinda hard to tell because of the way hand histories work but did you 4bet to £1.50 after a 3bet of 90p. I would be making that bet bigger: Like £2.50. After that, Blind vs Blind I don't think there is anything wrong with getting it in pre-flop with QQ. I certainly wouldn't be calling a 3bet out of possition unless I have a read that the villian loves to 3bet fold in these spots with all kinds of junk.

But if you have an image of been an uber-mega-nit or you believe that the villian only 3bets KK+ from all possitions then fold. You can't really set mine with QQ out of possition, and this is what you are doing if you KNOW that the villian has KK+ (in this case you might just as well have 22); 4betting with the worse hand against a range that never folds is obviously bad; and calling to just get it in on a J-high flop vs KK+ is bad too.

When people's 3bet+ range is this nitty you get into a game theory situation I like to think of as "pre flop nit wars". Basically if you only 3bet AK/QQ then the villian can adjust by only continuing with KK+ after you 3bet. Given that a 3bet is only 9BBs you need more betting to get AIPF so after 5betting a few times against these nits you only ever see KK+. So you adjust and only 4/5bet KK+. But then if you have KK and the villian 4bets you it's much more likely he has one of the six combos of AA and not the remaining one combo of KK (and we know he has nothing else because he only 4bet+ with KK+) so you have a 5:1 chance of a split pot and the rest of the time you lose. So then you only 4bet+ with AA. But then what do you 3bet with since you will have to fold your none aces hands to a 4bet.

The answer to this is to 3bet the hell out of these nits with all maner of junk. But only continue with AA. Wait for them to adjust and then widern your range accordingly.

Alternativly play it safe and only 3bet aces. Seems to work pretty well on Sky. :-P

BorinLoner

I disagree with jugglegeek about set-mining with QQ. If we believe our opponent is so tight that they only 3-bet with KK+, then set-mining for 6BB extra with QQ seems very wise. In fact, these are the players that set-mining is more profitable against than any others. Yes, it's playing QQ like 22 but the two hands have the same value if we are certain that our opponent has KK+, so play them the same way.

I prefer flat-calling the 3-bet pre-flop, regardless of the type of opponent we're facing. If we assume our opponent has a wider 3-betting range than just KK+, when we 4-bet it's very difficult for our opponent to carry on with worse than QQ and impossible to get them to fold better. If we just call the 3-bet, we can keep our opponent in with a wider range, much of which our QQ will beat. Of course, playing out of position makes it easier for us to be outplayed through the streets and we may eventually lay-down the best hand, but that's better than only getting it in pre-flop against stronger hands and losing value against worse hands. We just have to be confident in our own play, post-flop.

There can be occasions when it's alright to get it in pre-flop with QQ at NL10, if we have developed a degree of meta-game with our opponent that suggests we might be able to get them to call or 5-bet with worse hands. However, most of the regs at these stakes seem to be super-tight so this is unlikely. You haven't suggested this was the case here.

When you make the 4-bet, you have to think you can be called or raised by weaker hands. If you think you'll only get action from better, then flat the 3-bet. After you've made the 4-bet and been 5-bet, there's really no point in flatting. You're now too shallow to set-mine so if you think the opponent must have a better hand, you should fold. If you think the opponent can have weaker hands, just 6-bet shove.

IDONKCALLU

why the 4 bet raise so small dnt get it

The_Don90

I agree with IDCU here. 4bet bigger or peel. The tiny 4bet achieves nothing. 

As for this hand the discussion for me here is pre flop. When calling are we set mining, if so we have to fold all non Qxx flops. Meaning on this board we let go. Actually looking at this flop and we beat AK/AQ/AJ and TT. Not sure how many of them is in his 5 betting range either. The second thing to consider is are we getting the odds to do so. Im not the best at maths so im not going to say we are or we arent when we peel the 5bet. 

As this is actually blind on blind this makes it slightly harder and i probably 6bet ship pre. Reads are important in this spot tho, so im saying what i do readless. Against some opponents i find the fold to the 5 bet without questions. 

As i said though, i can find a fold on this flop. 

IDONKCALLU

4 bet to £2.40