hand self deal tourney

notalot

live game self deal tourney,i'm on the button and min raise sb shorty bb tighest player on the table, flop a 7 5
  sb checks ,bb raises pot i've flopped 2 pr and move all in sb folds and bb calls, and turns over a5 i have a7 spades and anounce my hand but turnover  one of sb cards which i've placed on top of my hand the muck is to the right of me player anounces my hand dead i say no and get a ruling and i'm ruled live bb blind upset and storms off my hand holds question am i live or dead

SolarCarro

In Response to hand self deal tourney:

live game self deal tourney,i'm on the button and min raise sb shorty bb tighest player on the table, flop a 7 5   sb checks ,bb raises pot i've flopped 2 pr and move all in sb folds and bb calls, and turns over a5 i have a7 spades and anounce my hand but turnover  one of sb cards which i've placed on top of my hand the muck is to the right of me player anounces my hand dead i say no and get a ruling and i'm ruled live bb blind upset and storms off my hand holds question am i live or dead
Posted by notalot

Why on earth are you touching the sb mucked hand?

I would say if a mucked card touches your cards then your hand is dead, that would be the ruling at my self dealt casino

BorinLoner

If the small blind can identify his cards, and the other two are yours then there's no reason for your hand to be dead. The big blind behaved embarrassingly by trying to call your hand dead, in my opinion. It's just a bit of angle-shooting. He doesn't sound like the type of guy whose feelings you should worry about.

Be more careful when dealing in future. Keep the muck away from the deck... and your hand, obviously.

SolarCarro

Is he the dealer?

He doesn't make that clear

When I am the dealer in self dealt games and mucked cards touch my hand I declare my hand dead hence I protect them

BorinLoner

Well, he says it's self-dealt and he's the button. If he's not dealing then it's pretty weird.

There's a difference between moving your hand into the muck and moving mucked cards into your hand. If your card is in amongst several other cards it's a different story but if there are just yours and the small blind's cards and the small blind can identify theirs, there really is no reason why your hand can't be played. Especially so if all the action has been completed with an all-in and a call.

If the dealer made a daft mistake and did it to your hand, you wouldn't want it to mean your hand was dead. On this occasion the player and the daft dealer are one and the same person, but that should make no difference as long as there's no suggestion of anything dodgy going on. As I say, as long as the small blind can identify their hand it should be allowed to continue. It would be the case with professional dealers too, I think.

There's alot of nonsense that goes on in live games, though. You've got to look after yourself and make sure to call the floor on any contentious issue. People try to get away with all sorts.

FlashFlush

One of the golden rules in live poker. If a card touches the muck it's dead. Therefore I agree with SolarCarro.

In future, if it's self dealt, its better to keep the mucked cards in the midle of the table that way you can't get them mixed up with your cards, if yours are over the line they are dead anyway.

SolarCarro

In Response to Re: hand self deal tourney:

Well, he says it's self-dealt and he's the button. If he's not dealing then it's pretty weird. There's a difference between moving your hand into the muck and moving mucked cards into your hand. If your card is in amongst several other cards it's a different story but if there are just yours and the small blind's cards and the small blind can identify theirs, there really is no reason why your hand can't be played. Especially so if all the action has been completed with an all-in and a call. If the dealer made a daft mistake and did it to your hand, you wouldn't want it to mean your hand was dead. On this occasion the player and the daft dealer are one and the same person, but that should make no difference as long as there's no suggestion of anything dodgy going on. As I say, as long as the small blind can identify their hand it should be allowed to continue. It would be the case with professional dealers too, I think. There's alot of nonsense that goes on in live games, though. You've got to look after yourself and make sure to call the floor on any contentious issue. People try to get away with all sorts.
Posted by BorinLoner

This is confusing, in any self dealt tourney i have played the player drawn in seat 1 deals for the table, or sometimes a volunteer deals (normally me!)

Are you suggesting that whoever is on the button is the dealer? Then it moves to the next person? It is very difficult to deal from anywhere other than the middle of a poker table, if this is the case then I can see how messy it must have got.

I'm pretty sure it is in grosvenor's house rules that any card that touches the muck is dead, you cannot have people searching through folded cards saying they had 2 of spades or 3 of diamonds etc

But OP did absolutely right in letting the TD make a ruling and that ruling has to be accepted so the guy doing the hissy fit is well out of order.

BorinLoner

The way I'm reading it is that the OP's hand did not touch the muck but rather that, in dragging the small blind's hand towards the muck, he mixed it up with his own hole cards. So his cards remain in front of him, separate to the muck, but with one or possibly two mucked cards mixed in with them.

I'm just assuming that at this table the dealer button was used to determine the dealer of each hand, as you might do in a home game. That's what seems to be implied by the original post, otherwise it's really weird that he has anything to do with the mucked hands. He does say that the muck is to the right of his hand.

Just to say, though, there are no golden rules in live poker. I have seen dealers fishing through the muck to pick out hands that have been mucked accidentally, on the instructions of the TD. Every house has different rules.

It would be nice for poker to have a single, codified rule book but it doesn't exist.

FlashFlush

In Response to Re: hand self deal tourney:

The way I'm reading it is that the OP's hand did not touch the muck but rather that, in dragging the small blind's hand towards the muck, he mixed it up with his own hole cards. So his cards remain in front of him, separate to the muck, but with one or possibly two mucked cards mixed in with them. I'm just assuming that at this table the dealer button was used to determine the dealer of each hand, as you might do in a home game. That's what seems to be implied by the original post, otherwise it's really weird that he has anything to do with the mucked hands. He does say that the muck is to the right of his hand. Just to say, though, there are no golden rules in live poker. I have seen dealers fishing through the muck to pick out hands that have been mucked accidentally, on the instructions of the TD. Every house has different rules. It would be nice for poker to have a single, codified rule book but it doesn't exist.
Posted by BorinLoner

LOL @ this. Once the cards hit the muck they are dead whether it's by accident of the player or dealer. I saw a case of this in an SPT a couple of years ago at DTD. It was late on in the tourney, near the FT and a guy was all in, the dealer, being a bit tired and not concentrating then mucked his cards, he was then told he had to be all in without any cards and automatically out of the comp.

@Dave, Quite often the dealer will be whoever is on the button that hand (Hence why the button says dealer on it) I don't agree with the "If your seat 1 your the dealer" rule as if your not confident or dont enjoy dealing you are not going to enjoy playing, so there is no point turning up. It should either be a volunteer or passed around each hand. (In my opinion)

notalot

In Response to Re: hand self deal tourney:

In Response to hand self deal tourney : Why on earth are you touching the sb mucked hand? I would say if a mucked card touches your cards then your hand is dead, that would be the ruling at my self dealt casino
Posted by SolarCarro

i forgot to say i was the self dealer and had the tighest player in the casino out flopped i mistakenly put the sb cards on top of mine instead of the muck

notalot

  let me also say i offered to deal so the said person didn't have to, we were about 2 hours in when this accurred, and i always make sure the muck is away from me and my hand,my hand remains firmly under my nose as i did muck them once in the main muck and my hand was called dead,i accept that but my hand was not in the muck but i had put the sb cards on my own as i new i was shipping when she raised stupid mistake but the players version of events was that they were in main UNTRUE ,just annoyed i suppose that they got caught with junk and made me out to be cheating sour taste being left not to worry next game thanks for the feedback