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Thoughts? Facing 4bet shove

RyanC7RyanC7
edited February 2013 in The Poker Clinic


I know initial 3 bet can be very light (anything) so instant thinking was 4bet call. The 4bet shove can also be light (aj 7s etc) given the players 3bet range. But at the same time would he 4bet shove with me still to act as utg opener?? Thoughts - call/fold/raise? I would never call but open to suggestions.


PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
goodylad21Small blind 2500.002500.0092398.96
mewillowsBig blind 5000.007500.0060164.25
 Your hole cards
  • J
  • J
   
jordz16Fold    
RyanC7Raise 10000.0017500.00146136.00
sam1986Raise 20000.0037500.00186418.23
RUTSTER19Fold    
goodylad21Fold    
mewillowsAll-in 60164.2597664.250.00
RyanC7???    
      
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Comments

  • RyanC7RyanC7
    edited February 2013
    I havent hid their player names as more experienced players will be able to comment more accurately i feel. Am I allowed to do this? I wont reveal their hands obviously
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  • bearlytherbearlyther
    edited February 2013
    We are ahead of the original 3 better because of his sizing i think he makes it slightly more than a min click back if he was looking to induce a shove so imo his sizing looks like he is 3 betting you in position with a hand like aq to try and get you to call with worse oop and big blinds shove is strong but is playing 12 bigs and will have seen the min click back from the 3better as not a premium pair.  So therefore i think we are ahead of original 3 bettor because of his sizing and the big blinds range in this spot could be 88,99,10,qq,ak,aq,aa,kk.  So yep considering this i think we have enough equity to go with it.
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited February 2013
    if hes shoving a 3 bet hes more than likely got something premium, you cant even rule out AA/KK because of his stack he would still shove with thse hands in this situation, i prob would lay it down since sami is also calling it
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  • GELDYGELDY
    edited February 2013
    shove
    bb has 12 bigs so could be on a wing and a prayer
    the rest as per bearly....
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  • mewillowsmewillows
    edited February 2013
    I havent hid their player names as more experienced players will be able to comment more accurately i feel. Am I allowed to do this? I wont reveal their hands obviously
    Posted by RyanC7
    I have absolutely no problem with you leaving my name in or even showing the cards. I was more concerned with your holding than I was with Sams as in position he can 3 bet very light. I also knew (hoped) it would be very hard for you to call with anything less than QQ,KK,AA,AK with someone to act behind. Well played last night though. 
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  • NColleyNColley
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts? Facing 4bet shove:
    shove bb has 12 bigs so could be on a wing and a prayer the rest as per bearly....
    Posted by GELDY
    rofl yes ofc mewillows is going to cold 4 bet jam with air when he has no fold equity.

    mewillows has to shoving a range of 99+, AQ+ for OP to have 50% vs him, even at a range 77+, AQ+, KQ he only has 55%.

    I think it's a fold.
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  • sighcallsighcall
    edited February 2013
    snap shove for me
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  • RyanC7RyanC7
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts? Facing 4bet shove:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts? Facing 4bet shove : I have absolutely no problem with you leaving my name in or even showing the cards. I was more concerned with your holding than I was with Sams as in position he can 3 bet very light. I also knew (hoped) it would be very hard for you to call with anything less than QQ,KK,AA,AK with someone to act behind. Well played last night though. 
    Posted by mewillows
    This is why I thought my fold could potentially be bad. Thought it was very marginal. 10s I fold Qs I snap lol. Js I grab a bowl and chunder. It was a very interesting game from last 30 onwards. I was watching all of the tables and found it really insteresting how the better players (ie you sam phil) are able to open 288892% of hands and yoyo a stack about but rarely be risking an all in for your tournament life without being favourite. I thought I was aggressive until last night lol. Wp though, despite 3 outing me!! lol 
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  • rancidrancid
    edited February 2013
    Go with it, win a race - love life i guess
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  • goodylad21goodylad21
    edited February 2013
    I was sat at the table & dont remember the hand lol.

    Feeling rough today :( Massive hangover ftw.

    Drunk miles to much watching Liverpool..,.
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  • GELDYGELDY
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts? Facing 4bet shove:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts? Facing 4bet shove : rofl yes ofc mewillows is going to cold 4 bet jam with air when he has no fold equity. mewillows has to shoving a range of 99+, AQ+ for OP to have 50% vs him, even at a range 77+, AQ+, KQ he only has 55%. I think it's a fold.
    Posted by NColley

    while i do respect your opinion in general in this case i put mewillows range much wider. maybe not atc but Ax, KorQgoodx etc
    i still shove
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  • mewillowsmewillows
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts? Facing 4bet shove:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts? Facing 4bet shove : This is why I thought my fold could potentially be bad. Thought it was very marginal. 10s I fold Qs I snap lol. Js I grab a bowl and chunder. It was a very interesting game from last 30 onwards. I was watching all of the tables and found it really insteresting how the better players (ie you sam phil) are able to open 288892% of hands and yoyo a stack about but rarely be risking an all in for your tournament life without being favourite. I thought I was aggressive until last night lol. Wp though, despite 3 outing me!! lol 
    Posted by RyanC7

    Was more like 288891% to be honest as I started to nit it up for a bit. ;-) Got lucky a few times last night, unfortunately you were on the end of one if them. But be happy to know I put your chips to good use. :-) nice battling with you sir. 
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  • NColleyNColley
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts? Facing 4bet shove:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts? Facing 4bet shove : while i do respect your opinion in general in this case i put mewillows range much wider. maybe not atc but Ax, KorQgoodx etc i still shove
    Posted by GELDY
    sam1986 has to call 8bb to win like 19bb if ryan folds it would be a big mistake for mewillows to be shoving like 55, QT, KT imo.

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  • RyanC7RyanC7
    edited February 2013
    Looking back on it I think I agree with N colley. Although I don't think re shoving with Js is bad. For 2 reasons I think. 1) his range is what you say it is I think 9s+ aq+. And with Sams 20k in middle knowing that he's folding the majority of his range I should be happy to flip with mewillows as he has an edge on me and its for his tournament life and I'd still be playing 15+ bbs even if I lose. Without being results orientated he had ak sam had 8 hi and I would of flopped a set lol and then gone on to beat Sam heads up ;)
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  • bearlytherbearlyther
    edited February 2013
    Yep thats what i thought when he min clicks back like this hes never going to have a premium hand.  If a random min clicks it back like this it could be kk,aa but when a reg min clicks it back like this im snap 4 betting them with my entire range if mewillows had of folded.
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  • SlykllistSlykllist
    edited February 2013
    Knowing the players involved I would imagins some level of metagme here too.

    mewillows knows sam can 3bet pretty light here which imo would make Jamies shoving range much wider than than just premiums.  I think I suck it up and move all-in
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG
    edited February 2013
    Not seen the outcome, but I like a fold here

    I don't think Sam is always that weak here, i disagree with bearly. (regardless of the result I just read)  And Mewillows range is v strong..

    Would have liked to have been playing with u guys but i only got 20th due to a suckout!


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