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A little help here
I'm well aware that some will slate this post but a serious question. Does anyone else feel in an MTT that certain players ( who seem to cash consistently ) tend to hit cards more often than most , or maybe that bigger stacks will 90% outdraw smaller stacks.
Just out of open - to very good player and regular casher , who i wont name but trust me is a very well known player with huge sucsess , blinds 10 / 20 , i raise to 80 with A A , he makes it 240 , i make it 800 , he calls. flop comes 8 6 5 , i shove expecting him to have K K or Q Q etc , he snaps with 5 5 and to rub salt into wound turns quads!!!!
1. preflop with 1800 stack he calls 800 with 5 5 , really ???? Surely that is shove or fold , and the fact i raised and then re-raised his re raise must tell him he is behind. If he feels im on AK,AQ etc or total rubbish he just shoves surely????
2. i have experienced similar againts 3 other regular cashers in last 3 or 4 tourneys , am i just being silly or do some players seem to catch pretty much everything they chase?
I know as i said at the start that a number of people will say im being ridiculous, but im certain more will agree.
Either way let me know your thoughts please
Many thanks
Just out of open - to very good player and regular casher , who i wont name but trust me is a very well known player with huge sucsess , blinds 10 / 20 , i raise to 80 with A A , he makes it 240 , i make it 800 , he calls. flop comes 8 6 5 , i shove expecting him to have K K or Q Q etc , he snaps with 5 5 and to rub salt into wound turns quads!!!!
1. preflop with 1800 stack he calls 800 with 5 5 , really ???? Surely that is shove or fold , and the fact i raised and then re-raised his re raise must tell him he is behind. If he feels im on AK,AQ etc or total rubbish he just shoves surely????
2. i have experienced similar againts 3 other regular cashers in last 3 or 4 tourneys , am i just being silly or do some players seem to catch pretty much everything they chase?
I know as i said at the start that a number of people will say im being ridiculous, but im certain more will agree.
Either way let me know your thoughts please
Many thanks
Comments
Isn't the open a rebuy this evening ?
If it is then calling with 5/5 in that situation is well worth it.
I think there are a lot of people with a lot of money that dont care about pot odds etc sometimes esp. in tourneys .The money is nothing to them esp. when they run good too. I honestly believe that some people have like 10% + modifier on variance for a year or two. Like the poster before said just luckier.
Look man people can see what you've said and you're not alone in being there.
It's how you deal with it that counts. Up to you really. How much of an edge have you got ? How much do you enjoy the challenge of 'learning' things ? Do you think poker is fun ?
Ultimately tho people are gonna tell you to stop being a paranoid wretch and stop whining because you win 81% of time there blah blah ........etc forever. Get into Area 51 with all the acid casualty cranks.
If you read old forum posts from different areas you can see that there are certain patterns to peoples enquiries that ultimately will never get resolved.
You just gotta learn how to win money and forget about everything else.
Believe it or not i understand what you say and have every sympathy with you.
But poker is like life and just not fair sometimes. William Blake had it figured best i reckon when he wrote this :
This was tonight's Open? - A rebuy. He's a successful reg so he will be well bankrolled. He's successful so he plays to win not survive. He's down to 1800 chips. I would do exactly the same with 55 in that situation (it wasnt me was it - poor memory).
Seen from his point of view he wants to build a stack. In a rebuy that is a different thing altogether from a freezeout mtt. He is prepared to chance it and rebuy if it fails. It's common and sensible tactics in a rebuy to maximise your stack if you can afford it either by being loose aggressive or rebuying. At the close of the rebuy period if I am short stacked I will chip dump to take max rebuys and the add on. It's all about being in contention after the rebuy period ends.
Without doubt there are some players who seem to be blessed with river cards from heaven.
But to be fair if you rail other tournaments they take part in you'll find they are human and do crash out early on a number of occasions.
The difference between them and us is they have mastered the skill of combining controlled aggression with prudent play. And are probably playing multi tournaments to our one or two.
When we are on the receiving side of a bad beat it's very easy to convince ourselves that the site is biased but the truth is we forget about the times we make the river to take the pot.
I used to think that winning on Sky Poker was 95% luck and 5% staying awake but am now a firm believer that Skill and poker awareness will triumph on most occasions!
What I would say is if you make a mega hand on the flop raise big but don't go all in till the river give yourself a chance to escape miracle bad beats.
Click onto Sky Vegas select roulette. Say you decide to put £5 red or black. Then maybe £3 odd or even. That leaves £3 which could be 3 individual £1 bets on 3 specific numbers.
Over time this may well offer you a better return on your money. Think of the time you will save too. No waiting around for 2 hours just to get sucked out on by some ditz that decides K-rag represents +ev and winning absolutely nothing. As long as you are disciplined and only invest money earmarked for tourneys you avoid all the frustration and boredom that tourney play causes and be better off financially.
I strongly suggest that any average or below poker player gives this some thought. The whole operation will take less than 30 seconds. Job's a good'un. No bad beat stories too. Just a simple honest punt for your cash
In the time you save you can read books or watch films. Over a year you will be a lot wiser and happier.
(Obv. tailor your roulette bets maybe better, i just made it up off the top of my head.)
Of course i play to win and am realistic of the variance in all poker , especially MTT , your never going to win every flip, but for everytime you get outdrawn you will outdraw someone the next time. Its a game of ups and downs , but for me until im rolled to play every main event everyday, the only thing that matters is enjoying it , and as i have said at the start of this post the people of this community help with that enjoyment and in my opinion having played on a number of different sites over the years , Sky is number 1 by a long way.
Thanks again for all your input
P.S - villain in this scenario went on to cash , i watched an hour of their play to see some of the moves they made and to be fair they fully deserved to cash and were unlucky not to go further , so very well done to them
You've always had this bee in your bonnet JJ. Anyone can win a tournament yes, as a one off. Doing it time after time is another thing entirely. The OP post was regarding the ME. To win 6 ME's in 6 months is quite a feat for any proficient mtt player. If your talking about 25 seat mtts then that's completely different. I would still contest that they would be profitable though.
The player mentioned in the OP had a very good reason to chance it with 55. It was a rebuy. How you can comment on his ability without knowing any of the facts preceding that play or for that matter who the player is, well it's beyond me. I offered a possible explanation for the play based around the fact that it was a rebuy. You seem to either not understand the difference or choose to ignore it.
As far as making mistakes is concerned, well all poker players make mistakes, whatever form or level they play in. As far as ''many bad players having successful records'' that to me is a conflicting statement.
You've always held the belief that mtt players are inferior to cash players and that's you prerogative. I think they are different disciplines of the same game. I wonder why all the good cash players grind away every day when they could simply play a few big mtt's a week and win them all. The truth is there are good cash players and good stt players and good mtt players. Some of the very good players can switch between disciplines, most can't.
Personally I regard myself as an mtt player. I can and have turned my hand to cash with success but I prefer the mtt. That as far as I am concerned is a personal choice. I'm sure that whatever any player chooses to play it's personal to them. There are many cash players I don't relish being on my table in an mtt, but there are also a lot of mtt players I would be wary of at a cash table.
You're a proficient cash player at 15/30 and I'm sure that with a little more practice and development you too could do well at mtts. After all as you said, anyone can be successful at mtts.
imo, there is a big gulf between bad and average and can't see how a bad player can be a winning player long term.......you don't have to be particularly good to be a winning player but you certainly have to be better than bad.....just my opinion
Have you been on the pop all day? This is nonsense.
What measure of ''good'' are you using?
Sleep it off JJ.
It's like slalom and downhill, flat racing and steeplechase, marathons and middle distance. Some exponents can be good at both, but most are good at one or the other.
I assume you mean good cash players who have a poor mtt record but that has nothing to do with donks winning tournaments. You're not trying to tell me they always meet the lucky donk who wins the tournament. Look in on the major mtt's on Sky or anywhere else and you will see the same players featuring in the final stages week in week out.
@ Elsadog, if he would be down to 1800 if he folded he could just rebuy then anyway and have 3800.
In this scenario 80ish% of the time he will have to rebuy for £11 and will have only 2000 chips
20ish% will not have to rebuy and will have 4000 chips, Surely on average he is throwing away £8 every time he makes this play?
But surely 80% of the time he is simply throwing away £11 when he could just fold and rebuy to get 3800 chips anyway?
80% he loses and rebuys £11 for 2000 chips
20% he wins, pays nothing and has 4000 chips
If he folds he could pay £11 and have 3800 chips 100% of the time.
Please explain as I am really confused...
A lot depends on how much £11 means to you. Many good players play to win and rightly or wrongly believe that a good starting stack is imperative to that. Also depending on what other games he may be in he will understand that some mtts will be throwaways each evening. If he is a winning player who can take down the big prize-money then he will probably set himself a limit to his rebuys in any mtt and work up to that limit.
Go and watch any mid to high stakes rebuy on PS and you will see this kind of play again and again. The villain did nothing wrong IMO - standard rebuy tactics.
I hope you are not mocking Dohhhhs philanthropic traits ? I think it's laudable. I personally wish i were better positioned to offer valuable insight. My failure.
Also Dohhhh you are being naughty because i am not simply a wum as you can well calculate.
On a serious note however....
As far as the mtt argument goes i am not in a position to say. There clearly is a perception bias at work here. Perhaps a master of both such as lolraise could surely inject some wisdom here. This debate shouldn't be a recipe for acrimony. As an outsider i find it interesting because i don't understand tourney play at all. I thought it was all about luck and poker basics. This clearly isn't the case and it's a concrete science. How so ? I really want to know because i have tried to work it out and failed. That irritates me.
So are some successful mtters just the recipients of positive variance ? It's possible depending on the sample size. You don't get these ambiguities in long-term cash. That is the nature of the differing disciplines.
Tom Dwan once remarked that to be successful in a mtt, " just run good ".
Are there ways of breaking out of the 'inevitable maze' of tourney play elsadog, to change destiny within a tourney format, evade the cooler death-traps and turn it into a consistently winning strategy over time ?