Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.

The_Don90

Readless thoughts on this spot. 

ayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceoddboySmall blind 15.0015.001765.00meerkat14Big blind 30.0045.002260.00 Your hole cardsQQ   chelseacliRaise 90.00135.001902.50The_Don90Raise 300.00435.001860.00xAll-in 2000.002435.000.00redcaz20Fold    oddboyFold    meerkat14Fold    chelseacliFold    The_Don90?????

Lambert180

Without reads I'd snap in a BH, not cos I want the bounty, just because people play like nutters and this 100% does not have to be AA/KK.

thejudge10

It really depends on how you value the tourny,its early on,the intial raiser folded i presume,i would call.There is the possibility he has kk,AA,but could be making the play with lesser holdings jj-99 ak ,aq aj.

percival09

pretty much was lamborinio said

unknown_username

i play bh's so often, this is defo call hes got ak or a lower PP then you

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:

i play bh's so often, this is defo call hes got ak or a lower PP then you
Posted by loololollo

can you explain your thoughts as to why

percival09

Unless we know villains range is AK/QQ/KK/AA then we should call imo

NColley

If readless and assuming we have an edge on the field.. fold.

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:

If readless and assuming we have an edge on the field.. fold.
Posted by NColley

disagree with this

I think it's much closer to a call if we are multi tabling mtts. This spot is too good to miss in a BH imo, and early double up means we have a much better chance of more bounties/putting pressure on ppl later on. 

If this is the only mtt we are playing and we are not loading any more then ye, fold. 

rancid

if you feel u have an edge then you shouldn't take flips this early

should be a worse hand more often then prems, fcuk it - snap

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : can you explain your thoughts as to why
Posted by The_Don90

imagine you had pocket a's or k's would you shove here?

no way your going to re raise it to about 750 espically in a bh you really want the other person to go all in

ive been in to many of these situations and basically everytime they got either a lower PP or ak

waller02

I would be cold 4b shoving AA/KK in a BH tbh......it looks weaker than a cold 4b of 750 imo, plus with your chips in the middle and your head on the line ppl just can't resist pressing call

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:

I would be cold 4b shoving AA/KK in a BH tbh......it looks weaker than a cold 4b of 750 imo
Posted by waller02

just saying from experience thats how the majority play

waller02

you just seemed to be ruling out AA/KK. Readless, I would expect the oppo to turn up with aces or kings sometimes but imo they will have worse more often which is why I would call

THEROCK573

i would be jamming here with AA or KK if it was a £5.50 or £11.00 game, they just wont be 3 betting without a premium hand at this level and will never fold to a 4 bet jam!!!

bearlyther

snap call

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:

Unless we know villains range is AK/QQ/KK/AA then we should call imo
Posted by percival09

I typed this out yesterday and then I got that annoying pop-up. So second attempt well away from pop up windows.

I'm not saying your wrong, i posted this hand because i genuinely don't know what the right play is here. 

My thoughts are the time leanded towards a fold. The a voice came into my head saying "but we hazzz queeeens" 

The result of the hand doesn't matter. I just want claification on how i play it. 

Even if we can increase the range to what you've said, adding say TT/JJ/AQ does that make it a call? - The hands u mentions + this was the range i was assigning at the time. 

NColley

Ok, seems like lots of people want to bust ~50% of the time in level 2 in a tourney we have an edge in..

If you have this situation 100 times, would you prefer to have 50 times with a double up, or 100 times with 1860?

Lambert180

Here ya go Donald assuming you widen the range as per your post above

    equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied   
Hand 0:     55.038%      53.78%     01.26%          270740232       6329616.00   { QQ }
Hand 1:     44.962%      43.70%     01.26%          220017912       6329616.00   { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }

And to be honest, the way the average player in these plays, I'd expect to see smaller pairs than TT sometimes.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:

Here ya go Donald assuming you widen the range as per your post above     equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied    Hand 0:     55.038%      53.78%     01.26%          270740232       6329616.00   { QQ } Hand 1:     44.962%      43.70%     01.26%          220017912       6329616.00   { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ } And to be honest, the way the average player in these plays, I'd expect to see smaller pairs than TT sometimes.
Posted by Lambert180

So i'm winning the had 55% of the time? 

MattBates

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:

Ok, seems like lots of people want to bust ~50% of the time in level 2 in a tourney we have an edge in.. If you have this situation 100 times, would you prefer to have 50 times with a double up, or 100 times with 1860?
Posted by NColley

Firstly, I think you are overestimating the hand strength of the opponent to assume we lose 50% of the time. However, assuming we win 50% of the time it would be interesting to know peoples thoughts on the answer to the question in bold as this will vary from player to player based on playing style/ability and numerous other factors.

So, to properly analyse the decision I guess we have to look at

How often do we believe we are winning the hand?
What is our expected outcome based on the number of times we win? Eg, for some players getting an early double up gives them a much better chance of a deep run in a tournament for others it might not matter as much.
We also need to consider our edge on the field

So in summary....like all good poker answers....it depends!

Hope that helps

Matt

mewillows

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : disagree with this I think it's much closer to a call if we are multi tabling mtts. This spot is too good to miss in a BH imo, and early double up means we have a much better chance of more bounties/putting pressure on ppl later on.  If this is the only mtt we are playing and we are not loading any more then ye, fold. 
Posted by GREGHOGG

I disagree with this. You are basing your thought process on the amount of tables you are playing instead of the info for this tourney why??  You can't base your decisions on anything other than the table in play IMO. 

Don your 3 bet is way to big and your flushing chips down the toilet if you get called and the flop has an Ace or King in it. I'm guessing you called the all in by the size of your 3 bet?

I personally would bet smaller, say 190-210. If they shove over the top I'd guess they'd have AK, maybe AQ at worst so I'd call. If they 4 bet like half your stack or something near that I'd fold without hesitation. It's still early in the tourney and will find better spots for sure to pick up bounties and cash which is more important and lucrative. 

rancid

readless - the faster the structure the more inclined you should be to take this spot versus 10's+AQ+

The fact that your readless makes it impossible to have any idea of range but your probabaly looking at 77+ AJ+
Could be just a crazy loon with 55, 78s )

The most important information is missing, how fast did they shove )

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : I disagree with this. You are basing your thought process on the amount of tables you are playing instead of the info for this tourney why??  You can't base your decisions on anything other than the table in play IMO.  Don your 3 bet is way to big and your flushing chips down the toilet if you get called and the flop has an Ace or King in it. I'm guessing you called the all in by the size of your 3 bet? I personally would bet smaller, say 190-210. If they shove over the top I'd guess they'd have AK, maybe AQ at worst so I'd call. If they 4 bet like half your stack or something near that I'd fold without hesitation. It's still early in the tourney and will find better spots for sure to pick up bounties and cash which is more important and lucrative. 
Posted by mewillows

Im hoping not to sounds disrespectful here mate, seen you play a few times have alot of respect. 

Surley we can't worry about someone peeling and an A or K on the flop. Its a £5 tourny, id never 3bet if i was worried about that. lol. 

Fwiw i did call, as i said previous tho, i dont care about the result, im not conviced the fold is correct and im not convinced the call is correct either. 

Given mattbates responce i guess "it depends" lol. 

As i said though, i posted the hand because i genuinely dont know what the right play is. I do feel i have a strong edge in this mtt. Although at the time i didn't factor that into my desision. - leak found.  

Lambert180

IMO you should win this about 65% of the time based on what I'd be expecting his range to be, don't think you can turn that down.

Don't think we should pay attention to how many tables we play, if a spot is good, it's good and it doesn't matter if we play 10 tournies per day, or 10 over the space of a week, it'll still even out, it'll just take longer.

bolly580

is the buy in £11 or under?

if yes then yes

If no then no

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:

is the buy in £11 or under? if yes then yes If no then no
Posted by bolly580

why should the buy in effect our desision. I understand lower the players are weaker. but really when it comes to this hand it shouldnt make a differance. 

Lambert180

Of course the field affects our decision. Would you make the same play at 4NL that you would make sat with Ivey, Dwan etc etc.

Readless, and especially on Sky with such a small player base, chances are if you're an MTT player (whcih you are) and they are good, you'd know them, if you don't they're probably bad.

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : I disagree with this. You are basing your thought process on the amount of tables you are playing instead of the info for this tourney why??  You can't base your decisions on anything other than the table in play IMO.  Don your 3 bet is way to big and your flushing chips down the toilet if you get called and the flop has an Ace or King in it. I'm guessing you called the all in by the size of your 3 bet? I personally would bet smaller, say 190-210. If they shove over the top I'd guess they'd have AK, maybe AQ at worst so I'd call. If they 4 bet like half your stack or something near that I'd fold without hesitation. It's still early in the tourney and will find better spots for sure to pick up bounties and cash which is more important and lucrative. 
Posted by mewillows

Because if I am 1 tabling because I am skint, I will give it full attention and I want to stay in. 

If i have a bankroll and I have several tables, i would rather have a stack as it is much more interesting! If i got knocked out, i can reg another, and another and another, until I win one and make profits

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:

Of course the field affects our decision. Would you make the same play at 4NL that you would make sat with Ivey, Dwan etc etc. Readless, and especially on Sky with such a small player base, chances are if you're an MTT player (whcih you are) and they are good, you'd know them, if you don't they're probably bad.
Posted by Lambert180

not quiet the same as the differance between a 5 and 10 quid tourny. also im just returning to sky mtts. i rarely play at this time. all that means i can be against a decent player i dont reconise

bolly580

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:

In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : not quiet the same as the differance between a 5 and 10 quid tourny. also im just returning to sky mtts. i rarely play at this time. all that means i can be against a decent player i dont reconise
Posted by The_Don90

somone in a £55 BH propably isnt going to gift away his tourney in the secound level with AJ/88 or whatever however Im sure anyone who's played £5.50Bh is more than aware that people do this with those hands.