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Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.

2

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  • The_Don90The_Don90
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : somone in a £55 BH propably isnt going to gift away his tourney in the secound level with AJ/88 or whatever however Im sure anyone who's played £5.50Bh is more than aware that people do this with those hands.
    Posted by bolly580
    Again we've now went from £5 to £55. Your origional comment was in regards to £11 mtts. 

    Thats why i asked the differance. The standards of the £11 events ive played are no higher than the £5 events ive played. 


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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : Again we've now went from £5 to £55. Your origional comment was in regards to £11 mtts.  Thats why i asked the differance. The standards of the £11 events ive played are no higher than the £5 events ive played. 
    Posted by The_Don90
    That is true, not much difference in standard between £5 and £11 but that's because the average standard in both is terrible.
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  • mewillowsmewillows
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : That is true, not much difference in standard between £5 and £11 but that's because the average standard in both is terrible.


    Possibly use a better word than terrible? This is low stakes and generally more inexperienced players, who are generally trying to learn, have some fun and make a bit of money as a bonus. Reviewing them as terrible is a bit too demeaning IMO. 

    Review a £110+ Buy In tourney where the play is generally better and calling bad play terrible is more justified. 
    FWIW I don't see you bossing tournies so you're sounding hypocritical. 

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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    Possibly use a better word than terrible? This is low stakes and generally more inexperienced players, who are generally trying to learn, have some fun and make a bit of money as a bonus. Reviewing them as terrible is a bit too demeaning IMO.  Review a £110+ Buy In tourney where the play is generally better and calling bad play terrible is more justified.  FWIW I don't see you bossing tournies so you're sounding hypocritical. 
    Posted by mewillows
    Hi Jamie,

    Maybe the choice of word was a bit harsh, it might be a small distinction but I'm calling the play terrible as appose to the players but yeah maybe could have used a better word. I still stand by the the general sentiment though that play in the £5.50 + £11 BHs is generally pretty bad and that's what would make me lean towards a call here (unless I know the player) because I've seen people make the same play early in a BH with much smaller PPs and loads of Ax hands.

    To be fair, I hardly ever play MTTs, had a look on SS the other day and only I've played like 350 in my entire like 3-4 years on the site, a big chunk of them have been SPT sats, and most of the others are from my early days when frankly I was terrible. Introducing more MTTs into my schedule now so hopefully you'll see me do some crushing ;)

    Paul
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  • rancidrancid
    edited February 2013
    Lambrini got told off )


    is genralisation a good thing to help us make decisions at the poker table be it a £2 BH or £200 MTT....


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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    Lambrini got told off ) is genralisation a good thing to help us make decisions at the poker table be it a £2 BH or £200 MTT....
    Posted by rancid
    To a point (and if we're readless), yes imo.

    We make assumptions all the time until we gather more information. If you sit at a cash table see someone limp/call after you iso w/ AK then we fire 3 streets on K269T and he just check/calls down, we assume he aint got AA, we have to make certain assumptions but then when he turns over AA, we have to adust them.

    Surely?

    Anyway, his range really doesn't have to be THAT wide to make us calling +EV
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited February 2013
    you could just do the maffs.
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  • rancidrancid
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    you could just do the maffs.
    Posted by beaneh

    Now your just being silly !
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  • rancidrancid
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : To a point (and if we're readless), yes imo. We make assumptions all the time until we gather more information. If you sit at a cash table see someone limp/call after you iso w/ AK then we fire 3 streets on K269T and he just check/calls down, we assume he aint got AA, we have to make certain assumptions but then when he turns over AA, we have to adust them. Surely? Anyway, his range really doesn't have to be THAT wide to make us calling +EV
    Posted by Lambert180
    Just a question )

    What's the probabilty that oppo holds a range where we have enough equity to be happy to get chips in middle

    I do agree that there's deffo a high probabailty that oppo holds 77+AJ+, but are we happy with enough equity this early

    For me it would just come down to the structure of the MTT and how fast it is and because of the fact it's a BH how likely is it that people go a bit loon.
     More likely to take a thin + equity spot in a fast paced MTT.

    Maybe I am wroung but some would say you have 60%, snap it offff!


    drastic example:

    WSOP main event - a fold

    £5 BH on SKY I snap

    £55 bh on Sky - player dependant

    £11 rebuy - can't snap quick enough

    spot is more than just the cards imo





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  • The_Don90The_Don90
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    you could just do the maffs.
    Posted by beaneh
    i such at maff 
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  • NColleyNColley
    edited February 2013
    So, readless we are going to auto assume all players are so appalling that they will get in like 88? AJ? KQ? because its a £5 BH? Ya, keep on showing players no respect too

    It's a cold 4 bet shove poeple. If I am going to generalise the player in this tourney they are loose PASSIVE. They CALL too much. So excuse me if I give them perhaps a somewhat tight range when they make an aggressive move in this spot.

    A player getting in like 77, AJ, KQ in this spot is the EXCEPTION, not the norm, even in a £5 BH.

    The range doesn't have to be that wide to make it +EV, thats true. But even if it's like +100 cEV does that make it worth it in a tournament you have an edge in? You can't reload and stack the weaker players in a tourney.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : i such at maff 
    Posted by The_Don90

    ya calculators are really hard.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited February 2013
    It is hard to quantify this Colley as (I think) Greg said earlier, some players will double and use it to try to boss the table/tournament, will be in a better position to bully people and so it equates to more than just the +100 cEV... BUT if you're gonna take the double up then just sit back again and just wait for big hands then the value of the double is reduced imo

    It's a tiny difference but also about 60% (imo) of the time when we win we also get about 33% of our buy-in back. I'm not a bounty chaser but probably should be mentioned.

    I don't insta-assume all players are appalling but from the small experience I have of low stakes BHs people tend to massively over value medium pairs and while they do call too much with some holdings, I've found they are more eager to get it in for a race with PPs and big Ax hands, so I wouldn't be including KQ in his range but certainly AJ+ and 77+ which gives us 63% equity which I think is good enough.

    P.S. Out of interest Donald, what did he have?
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    So, readless we are going to auto assume all players are so appalling that they will get in like 88? AJ? KQ? because its a £5 BH? Ya, keep on showing players no respect too It's a cold 4 bet shove poeple. If I am going to generalise the player in this tourney they are loose PASSIVE. They CALL too much. So excuse me if I give them perhaps a somewhat tight right when they make an aggressive move in this spot. A player getting in like 77, AJ, KQ in this spot is the EXCEPTION, not the norm, even in a £5 BH. The range doesn't have to be that wide to make it +EV, thats true. But even if it's like +100 cEV does that make it worth it in a tournament you have an edge in? You can't reload and stack the weaker players in a tourney.
    Posted by NColley
    +1 to all this. 
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  • rancidrancid
    edited February 2013
    saga's

    fold or call - neither wil be ever bad - cmon where's the thrill in folding !!
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited February 2013
    How do Donald's threads always end up being massive
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  • rancidrancid
    edited February 2013
    Not sure but we could start a thread about it )


    @Don
    "i such at maff "


    & spelling -
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    saga's fold or call - neither wil be ever bad - cmon where's the thrill in folding !!
    Posted by rancid
    Get off the fence!!!!!

    Saw your PM this morning. Working on an answer. 

    So far I have, 'Hey'.

    Unlike Donald in this hand, 'I'll get there' !
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  • NColleyNColley
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    I don't insta-assume all players are appalling but from the small experience I have of low stakes BHs people tend to massively over value medium pairs and while they do call too much with some holdings, I've found they are more eager to get it in for a race with PPs and big Ax hands, so I wouldn't be including KQ in his range but certainly AJ+ and 77+ which gives us 63% equity which I think is good enough. P.S. Out of interest Donald, what did he have?
    Posted by Lambert180
    Huge difference between someone calling off for their tournament life with 77, and someone cold 4 bet shipping with 77. One action is passive, the other is aggressive. 

    If the player is an aggromaniac, theres a high likelihood that you will know by level 2, presuming Don hasn't literally just moved to the table.
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  • rancidrancid
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : Get off the fence!!!!! Saw your PM this morning. Working on an answer.  So far I have, 'Hey'. Unlike Donald in this hand, 'I'll get there' !
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH

    fence !

    ok

    1 beer = fold
    4 beers = call


    pokers an ez game )
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  • sillymunchsillymunch
    edited February 2013
    There are many ways to look at this hand

    firstly Q Q top hand, and if he has AK your a tiny favourate
    but as that other guy said would you rather race now early on, or race later
    some people think early on is the best time to race because its only just begun you havent really spent much time or money on it so just go for it
    others will say "but you can outplay them later and win it back + more if you fold now

    personally it depends on your frame of mind, do you want to race for your stack, or do you want to earn your stack when you know you have an edge
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited February 2013
    In higher stake tornys your going to concentrate more and make better decisions withou realising it in lower stack tornys you dont care as much and might make some bad plays
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  • The_Don90The_Don90
    edited February 2013
    NColley basically sums up my recent thoughts on this hand. Thats not to say what i think at the time. 

    The one important comment is however is that people dont suddenly cold 4bet at these levels. Although playing the 2pm GTD game i seen it twice with worse, and even one person cold 4bet for 1/4 of their stack and fold. However that isn't the norm. 


    Lambert from talking sake as your more of a cash player. We go to NL8 - as this is about the same standard in cash terms, We have a UTG open and we 3bet with QQ. Suddenly the player whos new at the table but hasn't done anything out of the ordinary cold 4bet jams. Desision time. 

    Now i know on the cash table we can reload so even at 51% v his range is a call with dead money. However since its a tournament i think we have to be a bit more picky, expessially when this is basically are life in a tournament we have an edge on, in level 2. 


    For what its worth i dont think buy in should be effecting our desisions on how good or bad a player is. i personally see that as a mistake. I might be wrong, but even bad players play the £55 mains. Sats make up a decent percentage of the field, then you have people who play 1/2 tournaments a day who work hard and decide to play the mains, who maybe aren't the most experianced players, who just enjoy it. Again i think that will make up a percentage. The sharks will be 10% i rekon. 


    As for my posts getting long, i have no idea. Must have picked a good hand to post, my other one has 3 responces and one of those was me clarifying something. 


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  • The_Don90The_Don90
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : ya calculators are really hard.
    Posted by beaneh
    what some would i need to type in to get the correct answer? and is it suitable to do on a site without timebanks? 
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : what some would i need to type in to get the correct answer? and is it suitable to do on a site without timebanks? 
    Posted by The_Don90

    do the maffs after the fact when reviewing your play, then just remember the results you get when you play a similar hand'/situation in the future. just because people have timebanks on other sites doesn't mean they all start clicking TIME and breaking out geometric functions and high level algebra........
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  • rancidrancid
    edited February 2013
    lol........thread just gets funnier..............timebank for EV calcs FTW !



    fold and be happy about it

    Don can you just reveal now please, gagging for the answer )
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited February 2013
    Results Donald?

    It'll be 49o now and it won ;)
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  • The_Don90The_Don90
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    Results Donald? It'll be 49o now and it won ;)
    Posted by Lambert180
    Kings. the results doesnt matter though. As i said 
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  • rancidrancid
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : Kings. the results doesnt matter though. As i said 
    Posted by The_Don90
    Funny thing is Don, it does actually matter.

    If you called and oppo's shows you AQ.

    Would you question your play because you was right and made a good call.

    Think it's someting we do as poker players, where we only anaylasis when we think we lost and made a mistake.
    Don't think we anyaylis enough when we win, we natually assume we made the right play.

    I don't think you will actually find any posts in the clinic that say I won but did I play it correctly.


    just me thinking aloud...................


    edit:
    funny spin on things but I remember 3 betting QQ and got a caller on the btn (jake cody) in the £220 UKOPS , sb cold 4 bet shoved in the first level. I folded jake cody called with AK. Does that make Cody a genious or dummy ) sb had K5o.
    To this day I am still not sure, think it was 10,000 starting !! If I called I woulda still lost, Cody hit broadway !!

    This hand always sticks in my mind, I know...

    cool story bro !! )




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  • NColleyNColley
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : Kings. the results doesnt matter though. As i said 
    Posted by The_Don90
    :)
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