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What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?

edited June 2013 in Poker Chat
I have a group of poker friends on Skype, and some of those are better than me and IMO I'm better than some. So then I thought why do I help worse players than myself? I know in some cases they are my friends, but that's not really the point. People all over the internet post legit advice for absolutely no cost so players can improve without putting too much effort in, and in turn that makes games harder and the overall standard of poker players improves.

So what is the EV of helping players? Surely it's negative? Why don't we just keep the games as soft as possible to ensure maximum EV for ourselves? OR do you think it's only fair to share your knowledge? 

I have my own thoughts on this and will post them after we've got a few opinions :)

Discuss
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Comments

  • edited June 2013
    I think that discussing poker and listening to other peoples thoughts is always +EV, we're never too good to learn something new and sometimes just hearing the way someone else thinks about a situation regardless of our own perceived ability vs theirs helps us to better understand aspects of the game and think about things differently.
  • edited June 2013
    In Response to What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:
    I have a group of poker friends on Skype, and some of those are better than me and IMO I'm better than some. So then I thought why do I help worse players than myself? I know in some cases they are my friends, but that's not really the point. People all over the internet post legit advice for absolutely no cost so players can improve without putting too much effort in, and in turn that makes games harder and the overall standard of poker players improves. So what is the EV of helping players? Surely it's negative? Why don't we just keep the games as soft as possible to ensure maximum EV for ourselves? OR do you think it's only fair to share your knowledge?  I have my own thoughts on this and will post them after we've got a few opinions :) Discuss
    Posted by percival09
    Hi Percival.
    Most (If not All) Poker Players have differing styles, some good poker advice that works for one may not work for all.

    There are certain things we can teach players regarding simple ABC Poker basics which will help them improve, however, there are so many individual styles and methods that not one size fits all.

    If we could teach every player to play every hand the exactly the same way, regardless of circumstance then the game would be very predictable and boring imo, which is why poker is so fascinating.

    There will never be a right or wrong way to play a hand. The only "right way" to play poker is to have a good understanding of the basics, after that it's really very much down to the individuality of players, cards dealt & table dynamics.

    What works for one may not work for another, every player will always be unique, some stronger or weaker than others, but always unique.

    Fascinating subject is the mindset of a poker player.
  • edited June 2013
    /> Never used a training site
    /> Never read a poker book
    /> Only talks strategy with 1 other poker player
        /> Not involved in any Skype strategy groups

    (#coolstorybro)

    So yeah, as y'all might've guessed, I don't believe in all this sharing information stuff. But that's just my view.
  • edited June 2013
    Psychologists would probably say to proove our self worth or something like that.
  • edited June 2013
    Improving at poker is more of a evolution of theory and pratice aswell as improvong on the mental side of the game.

    If someone wants to improve then it will take a lot more than just recieving advice on how to play hands in a vacuum.

    You can tell someone how to play nl4 and beat it for example, but it's doesn't mean they will implement it very well.
    It also doesn't mean they would understand what they are doing and why.
    Why do you raise to 20p ? "don't know Dohhhhhh said I should" )

    Discussing poker is great and giving free advice is great, if someone wants to improve then they can only improve by studying hard and learning for themselfs.
    Your not going to be good by just posting hands and going off the answers you get for example.
    You then need to study the alternatives, understand them and more importanly understand why checking back the turn is so much better.

    You never stop learning anyway )







  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:
    /> Never used a training site /> Never read a poker book /> Only talks strategy with 1 other poker player     /> Not involved in any Skype strategy groups (#coolstorybro) So yeah, as y'all might've guessed, I don't believe in all this sharing information stuff. But that's just my view.
    Posted by Smitalos
    How did you know I was going to say that?

    Keeeeeep them coming people
  • edited June 2013
    I agree with the above two. I think its always beneficial to talk about poker, this is one game where you will never ever stop learning and even by talking about the basics can still help yourself even in a small way. 

    Plus, not to mention the old adage about giving something back. When you where learning the game you would have been happy to get all this free advice so its only fair you do your own bit too.

    One final point. By improving the overall standard, we are making it harder for ourselves and I think its easy to sit back and bemoan all this free advice everyone gets but instead use it as a positive to spur you on and improve your own game above everyone elses. 

    Oh, and by 'you' I mean every poker player! Noy 'you' for asking the question. Great question by the way.
  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:
    /> Never used a training site /> Never read a poker book /> Only talks strategy with 1 other poker player     /> Not involved in any Skype strategy groups (#coolstorybro) So yeah, as y'all might've guessed, I don't believe in all this sharing information stuff. But that's just my view.
    Posted by Smitalos
    Also pretty sure you've listened to a bit of baluga! #sayin
  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free? : Also pretty sure you've listened to a bit of baluga! #sayin
    Posted by percival09
    Listened to him, yes. On a training site? No.

    Mike Matasow wants a word with you buddy, something about...
    The kiddy games being down the street?

    #gg
  • edited June 2013
    I have been playing poker approx 3 years and have never had any help regarding web sites ,mags etc but i do watch a lot of poker on tv and have learnt certain things about the game by doing this.

    When i first started posistion was a different language to me but now its a very important part of my game,Plus im a big fan of 4 betting in pos and check raising.

    My online game is ok but i feel i need to concentrate more when playing at home with the tv on and the good lady moaning lol so if any advice on this would help me improve more lol.

  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:
    I have been playing poker approx 3 years and have never had any help regarding web sites ,mags etc but i do watch a lot of poker on tv and have learnt certain things about the game by doing this. When i first started posistion was a different language to me but now its a very important part of my game,Plus im a big fan of 4 betting in pos and check raising. My online game is ok but i feel i need to concentrate more when playing at home with the tv on and the good lady moaning lol so if any advice on this would help me improve more lol.
    Posted by est1967
    Yes - they needs to be a book or something as this is my biggest tilt problem! :)
  • edited June 2013
    I may be slightly biased. 

    I think having different views from better and worse players can teach us something. 

    I was watching the world championships of Pool on Sky Sports about 8 months ago, this pro (i cant mind his name) openly admitted to watching amatuers playing in pubs etc. Why because they might do a shot which can improve his game. They might not know they've done it or why its good, but the point is they done it. 

    I think this also applies to poker. I think I'm one of the lesser players in the skype group im in. Not the worst - Percival09 is in it ;) but i feel i still have something to offer the better players, even though that might be small. 
  • edited June 2013
    takes a big ego to think the help we may give will have a major impact on our competition
    and generally we give help to the next level - not the level we think we are at :-)
  • edited June 2013
    Being +EV in life.
  • edited June 2013
    Talking poker is fun. People like fun.

    Telling others what they did wrong makes you look smart. People like to look smart.


  • edited June 2013
    Not everything we do has to be based on Expected Value.

    Some people help others just because they're nice people.
  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:
    Not everything we do has to be based on Expected Value. Some people help others just because they're nice people.
    Posted by FCHD
    It seems you're implying that I, or somebody in this thread, only does it to gain something? Lame post and adds little significance to the thread

    Completely forgot about this tbh, I will post soon :)
  • edited June 2013
    Ok so IMO, purely based on the EV of the game, it's good to share information with other players because it's good to get more players TRYING to play the same game as you. It's good for the micro players that new players join the game, it's then good for the low limit cash players that the micro limit players eventually become good enough to play at low limits, but will then be a fish @ those limits, and so forth. It's almost like an evolutionary poker cycle that players become good enough to beat a certain level, but then they aren't good enough to beat the level above until they learn more and more - long process!

    Other than that though, sharing information with other players is fun and helps yourself improve, as well as developing your poker theory! It's also important to keep the poker economy healthy and helping players improve certainly does that imo! 

    You learn by sharing so overall I think it's +ev in just poker, but it's also fun and helps you develop your own game!
  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free? : It seems you're implying that I, or somebody in this thread, only does it to gain something? Lame post and adds little significance to the thread Completely forgot about this tbh, I will post soon :)
    Posted by percival09
    Sheesh, I'm not implying anything about any one else. it was a perfectly reasonable response to your first question

  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free? : - Incorrect on both 'Liquidity EV' and 'EV for yourself at the tables'. Poker is a game of information. The more you have and the less your opponents have, the more money you should win at the tables. - Dafuq? O.o - 'Fun' doesn't fall within EV, argument invalid. - Debatable, with proof of many becoming elite who not discuss strat with others. More likely rephrased as "talking strategy with players of a roughly equal ability". - Increasing the overall player strength of the player pool does the exact opposite. Making players better, if anything, is harmful to the poker economy. - Fallacy - See Point 3
    Posted by Smitalos
    Ok as you know I have not slept.

    You might have to wait until tomorrow for a semi-logical reply
  • edited June 2013
    C'mon guys

    Give a little hey. Tbh you will probably learn as much from seeing others opinions than as well as offering any advice/opinion. But if you really want to not bother then don't . Who cares.....it may be incorrect anyway...meh! If you decide on whether to help someone based on whether it benefits you then you are looking at it in the wrong way to my mind. 
  • edited June 2013
    ^^^ That is not even what I'm asking

    I'm not saying anybody should do it, or shouldn't do it, or anything. I am simply trying to start something this forum lacks - a discussion. 

    A discussion about whether it's + or - ev in terms of POKER for us to give advice to lesser players, i.e. forums/training sites/videos on youtube. Not whether it's morally correct


  • edited June 2013
    The EV has to be a plus....take the poker clinic on this site..full of advice on every type of hand, position, equity calling and % win scenarios from lots of different players. The way these hands are analysed offers advice for everyone..TOTALLY FREE...and players reading the posts can see errors in their own game or areas in which they can improve, also whats hot and whats not in relation to table position. Apart from all that, it gives you an insight into how to play against those who post in the clinic, should you meet them in a tournament or cash game, which in turn improves and enriches your own game.
    By helping to improve ''lesser or new players'', the chances are they will continue to play if they are able to win a few quid here and there using what they have learnt from all the available free advice.
    If there was no help out there then we would end up with the great game of poker becoming a game for the ''elite'' and would  damage the game...after all, we all play to try a make a few quid and keeping new players interested by giving out advice, not only helps them improve, but more experienced player too...overall it can only be good for the game..
  • edited June 2013
    +EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game then maybe we would be less likely to suffer at the mercy of so many "BadBeats" Due to poor play.

    +EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game, but then they don't actually ever learn to progress to a very much higher level, we will still have an edge against ABC Poker ability.

    Q - Is poker variance affected by other players skill level? ie...would we suffer less variance if more players improved to ABC Level?

    Thoughts Anyone?
  • edited June 2013
    In general it has to be -ev as it helps poorer players (like myself :) ) improve reducing the edge experienced players have.

    The only positive bit about it is by thinking about situations and particular hands it gets you thinking about how you play them and if thats optimal.

    I think if poker was my only source of income (thankfully its not with my game lol) I wouldn't give help to others. Sorry if that sounds callous but to me it's a bit like a pro golfer giving another golfer a tip on the green i.e. watch that putt breaks more than you think.
  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:
    +EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game then maybe we would be less likely to suffer at the mercy of so many "BadBeats" Due to poor play. +EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game, but then they don't actually ever learn to progress to a very much higher level, we will still have an edge against ABC Poker ability. Q - Is poker variance affected by other players skill level? ie...would we suffer less variance if more players improved to ABC Level? Thoughts Anyone?
    Posted by POKERTREV
    Would it not be worse because in theory if more players improved to abc level then in general we would be up against better hands more often instead of hands you are a bigger favourite against?
  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:
    +EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game then maybe we would be less likely to suffer at the mercy of so many "BadBeats" Due to poor play. +EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game, but then they don't actually ever learn to progress to a very much higher level, we will still have an edge against ABC Poker ability. Q - Is poker variance affected by other players skill level? ie...would we suffer less variance if more players improved to ABC Level? Thoughts Anyone?
    Posted by POKERTREV
    Personally I dont think the 'variance' would be affected by the improvement of players  to ABC level... A's will still be busted by lesser hands and players will still call raises with suited cards...With good pocket cards you want customers to build pots..and what looks like an the perfect flop for your hand could also be an even better hand for your opponent....
    Variance will not lessen by improving peoples games....it's part and parcel of the game..

    P.S. there will also always be 'BadBeats' due to ''Variance''...and in tournies, like B/H's, then short stacks are gonna get called with anything half decent adding to the ''Variances'' of the game
  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free? : Would it not be worse because in theory if more players improved to abc level then in general we would be up against better hands more often instead of hands you are a bigger favourite against?
    Posted by jdsallstar
    Hi jdsallstar.
    I suppose it depends on which way you look at it, but imo it's probably much easier to put an ABC Player on a hand than it is to put a fish or station on a hand for instance.

    You would be up against stronger hands in general, but we would gain the ability to narrow it down somewhat and thus make our decisions much easier.


    Don't get me wrong - I wish every player was really bad at poker tbh - especially at a cash table, but in MTT's (Which I play the most) it is very difficult to get to know a players ability as we are probably never on the same table long enough or play each other often enough.
  • edited June 2013
     There is the complication that --- If you teach a loonie how to play abc poker, he will be harder to spot.
  • edited June 2013
    In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:
    +EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game then maybe we would be less likely to suffer at the mercy of so many "BadBeats" Due to poor play. +EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game, but then they don't actually ever learn to progress to a very much higher level, we will still have an edge against ABC Poker ability. Q - Is poker variance affected by other players skill level? ie...would we suffer less variance if more players improved to ABC Level? Thoughts Anyone?
    Posted by POKERTREV
    You're kidding, right? :-)
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