What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?

Lambert180

Lol I think people are misunderstanding the question....

The question is from the point of view of the advicer giver, it is +EV to help other people improve or is it more +EV to let them carry on being bad and us having a bigger edge.

Saying it will reduce the number of bad beats is awful thinking (no offence Trev) but bad beats is what make winning players money. Bad beats happen when we get it in good and lose when we're favourite, whhy would we ever want to do something that would reduce the number of times we get it in good??

FWIW, I'm obviously a big believer in sharing info, hence my activity level in the clinic. Sharing strat with others is what has improved my games tons, and I genuinely believe that being the advice giver can help you too. Loads of times I've said something about a hand, it's been questioned, I've went and stoved it and realised it's a lot closer than I thought etc.

Truthfully it probably isn't +EV for the game because there will generally always be a new generation of people who turn 18 who can now start playing and will generally be bad, so as long as sites keep doing good promos, encouraging them in etc, then there should always be money at the bottom of the pyramid which will head to the better players at (for example) 4NL, who will lose it to the better players at 10NL, who will lose it to the better players at 20NL and so on. Must be loads of people that win X amount at say 30NL, go and lose £500 at 50NL, so step back down, win more off 30NL, step up etc, and these are feeding the higher levels from the weaker players they beat at the lower levels.

So imo it's probably -EV poker wise but I still do it.

beaneh

-ev ldo

increases variance ldo

can help you improve as a player though as you have to be more confident in everything you do and your understanding of it so you can explain it properly to people who don't get a concept.

calcalfold

In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:

+EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game then maybe we would be less likely to suffer at the mercy of so many "BadBeats" Due to poor play. +EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game, but then they don't actually ever learn to progress to a very much higher level, we will still have an edge against ABC Poker ability. Q - Is poker variance affected by other players skill level? ie...would we suffer less variance if more players improved to ABC Level? Thoughts Anyone?
Posted by POKERTREV

Point one, dude no.

Bad beats happen when villain sucks out after getting the money in way behind.

We want villains to be putting the money in way behind.

This is a reason not to help "lesser" players.

DAVEYZZ

In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:

-ev ldo increases variance ldo can help you improve as a player though as you have to be more confident in everything you do and your understanding of it so you can explain it properly to people who don't get a concept.
Posted by beaneh

This..... I have often tried giving advice to "lesser" players only to realise I have stopped implementing them myself

rancid

Think it's obviously -ev to help players you play against on a regular basis

But because I feel the learning process is a ladder with sooooo many steps, it doesn't hurt your EV to help others lower down the ladder. infact you should want to encourage learning in poker and get people instrsted in learing more about the game so they get into more and play more and basically fill the player pool. I am a big beleiver in the poker money goes upwards - so money won at nl4 eventually finds it's way to nl100 for example.

You can't teach someone step 5 before they learn step 1.

The only benefit you should look at when discussing in equal minded groups is what benefit are you getting out of it while sharing ideas and helping out others.
If you are getting nothing out of it and you just give give give -  then it's not +EV for you.

rosjim1

A realy good answer.

In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:

In Response to What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free? : Hi Percival. Most (If not All) Poker Players have differing styles, some good poker advice that works for one may not work for all. There are certain things we can teach players regarding simple ABC Poker basics which will help them improve, however, there are so many individual styles and methods that not one size fits all. If we could teach every player to play every hand the exactly the same way, regardless of circumstance then the game would be very predictable and boring imo, which is why poker is so fascinating. There will never be a right or wrong way to play a hand. The only "right way" to play poker is to have a good understanding of the basics, after that it's really very much down to the individuality of players, cards dealt & table dynamics. What works for one may not work for another, every player will always be unique, some stronger or weaker than others, but always unique. Fascinating subject is the mindset of a poker player.
Posted by POKERTREV

unknown_username

In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:

In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free? : You're kidding, right? :-)
Posted by percival09

Just throwing it outside the box for debate

Smitalos

In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:

Ok so IMO, purely based on the EV of the game, it's good to share information with other players because it's good to get more players TRYING to play the same game as you.

- Not entirely accurate on both 'Liquidity EV' and 'EV for yourself at the tables'. Poker is a game of information. The more you have and the less your opponents have, the more money you should win at the tables. By giving away information to others you decrease liquity to those that are already playing the game, and increase the skill levels of your ops at the tables.

It's good for the micro players that new players join the game, it's then good for the low limit cash players that the micro limit players eventually become good enough to play at low limits, but will then be a fish @ those limits, and so forth. It's almost like an evolutionary poker cycle that players become good enough to beat a certain level, but then they aren't good enough to beat the level above until they learn more and more - long process!

- Can't make heads nor tails of this

Other than that though, sharing information with other players is fun

- Invalid, just b/c 'Fun' in this context doesn't fall within EV.

and helps yourself improve, as well as developing your poker theory!

- Purely conjecture , with proof of many becoming elite who not discuss strat with others. More likely rephrased as "talking strategy with players of a roughly equal ability"?

It's also important to keep the poker economy healthy and helping players improve certainly does that imo!

- Increasing the overall player strength of the player pool does the exact opposite. Making players better, if anything, is harmful to the poker economy.

You learn by sharing so overall I think it's +ev in just poker,

- Fallacy. Learning from sharing information with lesser players could be argued that... well, it isn't learning at all. It's more so just talking things out loud to yourself so you get a better understanding of it, or practicising at being able to think critically.

but it's also fun and helps you develop your own game!
Posted by percival09

- See Point 3

Bluh, 1st attempt was a little blunt, and it's wasn't meant to sound like I'm against people discussing cool poker spots, sowwwwwiiiiiiiuh. Had just woke up, and points were made purely to show that the arguments made don't really add that much to arguing for the motion. So, this is me tweaking that post for better reading. Apologies, guys.

calcalfold

Right,

I think I have found a +ve for helping "lesser players"

Free information

If you/the forum as a whole helps bad players, they will be inclined to keep coming back for more.

This means more hand histories.

Handhistories are a great source of free information that might be worth noting down.

If we didnt help the "lesser players" they would stop posting all this information.


So, Smitalos, can you rebuke that one........?

benc

How about feeling good about yourself for helping others?- may not be poker related +ev, but +ev in life in terms of mindset, personally i enjoy helping others if i can and feel good about myself it it directly helps them improve as i can empathize with them and appreciate all the help i have had so like to try and help others like i have been helped. I understand as a poker player you have too be ruthless and from a purely poker point of view then its -ev, but a valid point nonetheless also feeling good about ourselves may also have an influence over our perfomance long term, just a thought though coming from someone who plays the game as a hobby.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free?:

Right, I think I have found a +ve for helping "lesser players" Free information If you/the forum as a whole helps bad players, they will be inclined to keep coming back for more. This means more hand histories. Handhistories are a great source of free information that might be worth nothing down. If we didnt help the "lesser players" they would stop posting all this information. So, Smitalos, can you rebuke that one........?
Posted by calcalfold

I'm guessing he'll say....

"If you want HHs, go and watch some cash tables"

Then he'll do this...

#ggsir

GELDY

good question

as a rec player, how does it score against my reasons for playing:

i play for social interaction: +EV

i play as a sport: =

i play for intellectual stimulation: +EV

i can do it for no cost: =? (depends on your conclusions on this thread)

samantha25

Brag post... I am better than someone (oh poo this ain't TKP ill stop spamming)