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dohhh what do you want me to say about your hand? my thought on the hand you played was poor no matter which way i look at it
I question the pre flop play and the turn play. - Pre flop more so.
DOH
U may think I played it terribly, but what if he had TJ here? QJ? kj? AJ? even queens or kings?
Look at the pre flop action, check call 6x bb? what do u put him on there? small pair?
I think the play is successful; alot of the time, dont u? if not y not?
DOHH
the fact that u bet and he didnt doesnt change the fact that with one card to go and all the cash in (out of a possible 43 cards) u had 4 outs 4/43 u do the maths i will take them odds every time
people are critizing stanley for not frightening an aggressive player away when he is so far ahead
-If u dont bet the turn and your straight comes then the cash goes in then its bad play by stanley
-If u give the option to stanley 100 times with that pot and them odds stanley is laughing all the way to the bank
Dont fool yourself Doh that u played this well and Stanley played poorly because of the outcome
Use this as a tool and a learning experience players check against aggressive players not just because they are weak or are on a draw
The cards irrelevant in this specific hand.....all im trying to do is make him fold! Thats my objective as soon as he calls me on the flop. If I cant make him fold, I cant win? - wud anyone disagree with that?
Leaves me with 2 options, give it up, or move in - again, what wud u do when its checked to u? TK shud use this scenario for a mastercash poll. lol
My post was sposed to be more genral than specific though, hes not got top set everytime has he.
DOHH
Dohhhhhhh did what he does and stanley08 played it perfectly knowing that there was a good chance that this was going to happen. Dohhhhhhh obviously got lucky (hitting a 4-outer for a 10/1 shot) but aggressive players will get lucky at times and many times they gain massive equity by getting timid players to fold superior but non-nut hands.
The arguments for saying that stanley08 should have been more aggressive are really -EV in my opinion. When you hit a massive hand against an aggro player you want to get paid the maximum so you almost always slow-play them. Having said that, I tend to bet out with big hands on the flop after being passive pre-flop (given deep enough stacks) because I like the odds that a LAG will re-raise me which means that I have more chance of getting all the cash in. Players like Annette Obrestad call betting out on the flop (after being passive pre-flop) a "donk" because it almost always shows weakness and people who do this will almost always fold to an aggressive raise - that's why I like to do it against aggressive opponents (but not always!).
Arguments about getting your money in first here (and protecting your hand) are irrelevant - if you are stanley08 you are praying to get all the money in by whatever means. Obviously Dohhhhhhh could have taken a free card to hit his draw but I'm pretty sure that stanley08 was confident that Dohhhhhhh was going to bet.
It's a pretty standard cash hand to be honest - a LAG plays like a LAG and gets lucky against a trapping passive player. We pay our money and take our chances. Then, when we get out-drawn we have to take our beats - I guess that Phil Hellmuth would be crying like a baby after a beat like that.
P.S. Dohhhhhhh obviously wasn't a fish in this hand, a luckbox yes, but not a fish. :-)
Aye Id love to make him cry the wimp! lol
Good hand analysis novice, I agree with all of it.
His pre flop play tho, u missed that? And my play here over a period of time rather than this specific hand when Im trying to bluff a fella off the nuts?
Cheers for reading and replying, DOHH
I don't like his play pre-flop but I'm not going to castigate him for it. I didn't comment on it because I don't have strong feelings on it. Against you, I'm 3-betting big and am happy to take an aipf race if that is what happens. The reason that I'm happy to do this is that I think that I'm ahead of your range and letting another player into the pot is -EV for me.
I think that we can all agree that aggressive play like yours wins more pots. The skill is required to balance this against losing the really big pots. It's simple maths that given two players with random hands over an extended period of time then the player who gets the other to fold most will win most pots - but he won't win most of the big pots. Depending on the skill level (and image) of your opponents you have to adjust your play to be optimal. It's a fine balance to achieve but I agree that on many tables out-and-out aggression is effective and simple to implement so long as you have the temperament to accept the variance.
DOHH
I'm not a big fan of having to get your money in first in a lot of situations - I'm more of a fan of getting your money in ahead. In this situation, I'm willing to forgo the benefit of fold equity for a chance at getting an all-in where I may even be 80% favourite.
Okay, its a gud argument. Although Im not a great believer in, alot of the technical terms u use,....I think I understand.
I love people to move on me here pre flop! easy money or easy fold! - Only difficult decision I have is if im holding AK suite. snap with QQ KK OR AA. Fold the rest for a net loss of 3 quid.
"You pays your money and you takes your choice."
Sorry, I didn't realise that I was using technical terms; I thought that I was replying using terminology that you used yourself - apologies.
If you want to discuss this further, PM me - I think we may have exhausted the patience of the rest of the forum.
So you want t talk about poker now then? That earlier discussion must've got to you more than I thought! lol
Anyway, the hand you've shown doesn't (imo) appear to have been played badly by either of you. He flat called your raise pre flop to disguise his hand, probably already putting you on an ace. He put in a small bet after hitting his set, expecting you to re-raise and checked the turn in the hope that you'd do exactly what you did! You got lucky on the river but you were never fishing! There maybe a case for him to re-raise pre but with the dodgy Jacks he probably wasn't too confident!
I think I would've played it in a very similar fashion on both sides of the table!
Now where were we on the subject of abuse...............................!
NO don't say it! lol
You've done nothing "fishy" in this hand, as you are the aggressor. Had you been the caller, I'd be gutting you and serving you for dinner
As played, I'm tempted to check behind the turn as Villain has told us that he has got something with his, to me, suspicious flat call on the flop. (Any oppo who plays a hand like this when I have no history available always sets my alarm bells off) That way then, if I hit, I'll probably get paid off as our hand is well disguised and a check behind will quite often cause Villain to bet any river and if we've hit (any non-club A, Q or K) then more often than not we're ahead and getting good odds to call or even raise if we hit the K, but if I miss, I can get away from it rather cheaply as Villain is highly unlikely to bet missed draws here and A high might even be good if he has a missed combo draw (something like A2cc or Axcc). Apart from that, you've played it fine.