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Pocket Queens, facing all in pre for 100 bb plus, call or fold?
Just wondering what people would do here with queens, facing such a massive overbet? Totallyreadless, oppnent is knew to table
JNWallerSmall blind £0.02£0.02£5.11Superman_Big blind £0.04£0.06£3.42 Your hole cardsQQ LARSON7Raise £0.20£0.26£10.94hoggy245Call £0.20£0.46£4.06aquajimCall £0.20£0.66£1.18mitchymofoCall £0.20£0.86£0.42JNWallerAll-in £5.11£5.97£0.00Superman_Fold LARSON7Fold
JNWallerSmall blind £0.02£0.02£5.11Superman_Big blind £0.04£0.06£3.42 Your hole cardsQQ LARSON7Raise £0.20£0.26£10.94hoggy245Call £0.20£0.46£4.06aquajimCall £0.20£0.66£1.18mitchymofoCall £0.20£0.86£0.42JNWallerAll-in £5.11£5.97£0.00Superman_Fold LARSON7Fold
Comments
6xAA
6XKK
1xQQ
6xJJ
16xAK
I fold, although I am a bit of a nit at 4nl.
If we call, we must make a note that villain re ships over 20p with XX and a £5.30 stack. So making a mistake can be used as a reference point in the future.
lol normally at 4nl the open shove is aces or kings. That's why i folded.
But in this example, it was a wrong fold. Ironically it ended up in a 4 way all in lol
as for figuring in rake, as rake is taken from the eventual pot as showdown then when working out ev lines you simply do not account for rake.
Plus it would get even more complicated when you try and figure in rakeback !
if rake is at such a % where it makes playing a certain range -EV then you have to answer yourself why are you playing where your playing or like you hint at you just have to tighten the belt
but you really shouldn't pay too much attention to rake, kinda drags you away from the more important issue of finding the greater +EV line
lol you rubbish my post by showing this toy example
wp
Just advising to concentrate on making the greater +EV play rarther than sweating rake at the tables
I mean come on your example has no real world application, you range 50/50 - with no fe - no dead money ?
We can pick toy examples out of thin air - it doesn't prove anything - would seem your just trying to rubbish what I am saying with no real hard facts to back up what your saying.
lose 20p next hand.
even with good reads on a player you could still be racing at best.
I might call for around 50bb's or less,which would indicate to me that this player hadn't topped up,but imo no need to risk 100 bb's or more.
I can find a better spot to get 100 bb's in.
dev
My point is quite clear that you should not concentrate on rake when making plays.
I mean you could figure this into your strat and get them to fold a lot pre in 100bb 3 bet pots etc..
Your simply talking about a spot where you have to call off 50/50, I think anyone with a basic understanding of EV know what to do in that spot.
Just think your going to get sidetracked at micros concentrating on rake, where situaions are all about range, equity , EV.
I just think when people at micros contemplate rake they do it after the end result.
"O look I was actually flipping and we both lost .16p"
Very easy to know the asnwer with hindsight, doesn't mean your play was wroung.
Would be better to focus on villians range and if villian is shoving wider than TT+,AKs,AKo your making a mistake by folding.
It's no secret there is a big hand - big bet strat to micros and it's all to do with rake plus the obvious NOFE at micros.
I grant you rake % affect everything from pre flop raises, how you should play your draws - how you should play agianst draws escpially.
If people are going to start folding big hand pre becuse of rake then your going to need some luck.
Need to think about range v range before rake
I will agree anyalising plays alongside rake % is good @micros but seriously it should not alter you plays at the table where you just become paranoid about rake.
A lof of micros start out there that alot of mircos players are employing actually take rake into consideration.
So if your implementing good micro strat rake should not be at the forefront of your mind when playing.
x2 for your first point.
ok this is getting silly I am never folding KK:)
Why would I put you on such a narrow range and fold, cmon bad example.
If anyone starts playing like that then surely we should all be shot
But anyway maybe it has come across like I am saying rake is not a consideration. Because somewhere it obviously is and if read through my posts I lean towards saying it must be considered somehwere.
But you gotta think about range first and because these situations where you really have to look at a very thin spot and take rake into account are rare I don't think people need to start thinking about rake first.
Otherwise it's going to have such a negative effect on people game where they giving up so many spots because they range them so narrow and then think - o yes I can fold because of rake.
For this QQ -ev spot for example where I gotta fold because I narrow villian & readless is just so stoopid it beggers beleive. How can people readless assign a range and fold because of rake.
Your going to need 100% concrete read to fold spots like that, seriously do you guys think it has a massive implication on your pre flop game that your going to start folding premium hands.
So yes I will continue to warn the micros that putting rake first is not the way to go.
If people want to disagree then fine.
Makes me chuckle that a lot of people are using anti rake strat anyway but don't even know it, they just think they value betting.
But anyway think about range pre and post before rake.
If anyone wants to rubbish what I am saying then come on bring it on.
Might actuaally get some decent poker talk rarther then someone posting "x2"
EV of folding is already -5bb.
It's expected value, we can not base the calcualtion on money we have already lost.
ie. when we flip a coin we calucalte the ev on the next flip and do not factor in the last flip