MTTs - You mission should you choose to accept is.........

dabossman

I have been debating starting something like this thread and today I thought, lets do it.

I play mainly cash and have built a BR that I am comfortable playing NL4 and low stakes MTTs (nothing more than £6 BI)

My biggest issue is MTTs, I am just useless at them (Mr Sharkscope say so). Dabosslady is getting more irritated by my wanting to discuss hands with her, particularly when some Great British 4 weddings something or other is on. As much as I enjoy playing cash there is no real susbtitute to the excitment of running deep in an MTT, that excitement has been few and far between me

What I am looking to do is maybe post hands from MTTs along with my logic about why I played a hand a certain way. I will not use this as a bad beat moan shop but rather as an area to have my logic ripped to shreds if need be.

There are some good players on this site and I was hoping some of you would be willing to help out with a format of poker that I just cant seem to get to grips with. 

I honestly do not mind having my play criticised, in fact I am openly encouraging it, as I want to improve my MTT game. This wont be a diary or anything, no targets are being set, I am just looking to post hands and see

if my thinking is fundamentally flawed or that I am maybe doing the right thing and in the longer term making winning plays.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and I hope you will be willing to add your thoughts to any of the hands I post. 

IDONKCALLU

if u got any hands to post  post em in the clinic im sure u will get some great advice and i will add my input aswell 

hhyftrftdr

There are some very solid MTT players on this site, so you should get some good advice. I'm happy to help out where possible as well.

dabossman

I cant seen to post hands at the moment, It keeps going all funny. Is there a particular way to post them?

IDONKCALLU

go to the lobby top right hand corner do to hand history should find all the info u need on there use the download much better then the browser imo

IDONKCALLU

cant see it post it in the poker clinic would be better ya get lots of opinions on the hand 

dabossman

Cant seem to post hands, tried different ways of doing it and it just comes out all over the place and missing the cards.

Oh well

LARSON7

Hey Dabossman,

Pretty sure you read my thread, if not check it out below.

The most important things i've learned since i started the post, all in my opinion of course

1) Preserve every chip - later on the more chips you have the greater the double up will be when it comes

2) Play quite a tight range, but when you have a hand, try and extract as much value (so that as above when you double up, you are getting as much chips as possible

3) Be patient, when i first started a lot of the time i got "bored" and just frittered my stack away

4) Pick your spots, keep an eye on how people are playing, their tendencies. Don't be scared to get your chips in the middle stages, if down at 10 Bigs, just look for a spot to shove all in with a hand you have decent equity with.

5) Find what sort of game suits you best, i love teh deepstacks on here, there is plenty of play in them. I'm not a big fan of B/Hunters due to the amount of players playing any two cards, it can be a bit more bingoesque.

Basically play the same style as you use with cash, but be a bit more aggro with strong/ value hands.

Good luck and look forward to hearing how you get on 

IDONKCALLU

tight is right early stages in a mtt i wouldnt advice playing any hand less then 88 early stages u cant win a mttt in the early stages but u sure can hell lose it just play tight mid to late stages this is where we need to change gears blind stealing playing in position is key to sucess u need to be alot more aggro 

the chips are so vital mid to late stages then the early stages thats why i say play tight early stages in a mtt coz we need every chip we can get to bully people around later on

K8LOU

I think u have to base your strategy around your notes of certain players around the tables you r placed on a table with, I would never say play tight early on if u have a really passive table because ur missing out on a lot of spots to pick up chips and vice versa I would never say go gung ho when u have a mad table, basically adapt to how u perceive the players, as a general rule I do like to play abit tight early stages and go through the gears l8a on in the tourney but you cant just base your whole strategy as tight early and loosen up l8a on ! anyways I hope u achieve what you want to achieve an gl

dabossman

I have given up trying to post the first hand and so I will just describe it, not the best but trying to get a hand to post properly is more tilting than having AA cracked by 72o!!!!

So, here goes. The hand is a classic siuation that I run into playing MTTs and I am always left wondering did I play this right.

It is the early to mid stages of a tourney and I am dealt AJ suited (Diamonds) on the button. Good hand but I am always a wee bit wary of it. I have a chipstack of 3850 and opponent has about 7000. Blinds are 75/150.

Opponent 3xs under the gun so I am giving them credit for having something. As I am on the button I decide to flat call rather than re raise as I will have position. Is this a mistake? Anyway flop comes

K(S) 5(D) 4(D)

I am pretty happy with this flop, I have the nut flush draw but no made hand yet. Opponent cbets and I decide to semi bluff by re raising, I am perfectly happy to get it all in now and happy to take the pot down if the opponent folds. They don't, they flat call the re raise. After the call I am left thinking what do they have, a weak King? An underpair to the King?. When the turn comes and misses I am left with less than a pot size bet behind. The turn comes

2(C)

Opponent then checks, what is the right play here? I am thinking they maybe have a hand that could be pushed off by shoving after just calling the re raise as someone would surely be getting AK or KK in on that flop. Even if I am called, I am not drawing stone cold dead. I have even picked up a gutshot straight to my flush draw and possibly still have 1 over. 

 

Am I right? Am I a complete fool and should I have taking the free card. What happens if it comes another blank on the river. Give up?  

IDONKCALLU

3 x raise utg    and u have a j of diamonds     with just under 4 k   u cnt even think about calling here its the worst option ya to shallow to call here 

my advice is   fold best option    then all in   last option is call u cant call 450 out of 3850 stack u just cnt do this u have a good shoving stack when some 1 has raised pre coz u have enuff fold equity but i wouldnt advice doing it with this hand as u said the utg raised was 450 and utg raise is pretty strong 

if it was on the cut off or on the buttin this guy raised to 450 i would jam all in here as the range of hands in late position are wider hope this makes sense 

chicknMelt

biggest and most common mistake for low buy in MTT players is limping. expecially when the blinds get a bit bigger.

if there is one piece of advice I can give it would be dont ever limp! try to only play hands when you have the betting lead (unless there is a good reason not to)

havent seen any hands yet, but MTTs are different to cash in that the different stages of the tournament have different dynamics... and as such require different tactics to navigate through them successfully... I'll try to explain.

early stages: play tight at the start + a few specultaive hands when you can see a cheap flop with high implied odds (eg, 10/20 blinds. a raise to 60 and 2 callers - your in the bb with 22 - perfect spot for a set mine). In the beginning stages you will see lots of people seeing a flop in lots of hands, so it pays to have a good starting hand when you do play a hand.

middle stages: (50/100 blinds +) as the blinds get bigger, play more agro - squeeze more, steal blinds more, resteal more. Wierdly this is when people start to play more tight because it "costs more to see a flop" and its getting towards the serious end of the tournament so people are trying to conserve chips. take advantage of that! stack permitting obviously - but dont be afraid to 3bet shove button raises etc with weakish hands when short stacked 10 > 20bb. 

Bubble: as the bubble approaches your play depends alot on your stack size - small stacks are just trying to survive until the bubble bursts - big stacks can take relentless advantage of that, as well as putting medium stacks under alot of pressure (playing for their stacks when there are lots of smaller stacks that are likely to go out soon and burst the bubble). so with a short stack - just try to survive, with a big/medium stack - bully everyone with a smaller stack than you.

as soon as the bubble bursts: make a quick anaylsis of how play has changed. if people are shoving alot trying to double up then play tight and catch the gamblers. If your table has continued to play tight, then continue to play agro until the table plays back at you.

final table bubble - see bubble

final table - play tight mostly - In general, your aim should be to outlast the others and ladder up - I've found that sort of thinking works alot better than "i need to knock everyone out and win this thing". you only need to ladder up 4 places and then your heads up, and anything can happen heads up. so in summary - steal when possible, but dont commit alot of chips unless your pretty sure you have the best hand. Of course, if you are big stack, you can continue to bully the shorter stacks as this is probably how they are thinking too.

Batkin88

try doing it through browser hand history and not off the download client I have a similar problem but this way works

chicknMelt

ok dabossman, just seen your first hand post - here are my thoughts: 

UTG 3x's so you give him credit for a hand, you decide to flat.

-horrible. as IDCU says you cant be calling here. you have 2 options, fold or shove. A general rule for you - if the call is for 10% of your stack or more then you cant call. shove or fold. the choice you make depends on the player - have they been opening alot? if so , then I'd favour the shove, if not then the fold.

K(S) 5(D) 4(D)

I am pretty happy with this flop, I have the nut flush draw but no made hand yet. Opponent cbets and I decide to semi bluff by re raising,

like your thinking, but the actions that were a result of your thinking werent great... you don thave the stack to be rr, or calling. again, shove or fold. as played, I'm shoving 100% of the time here. you have good equity against any hand, and they will fold aot, making it the most profitable move IMO.

Opponent then checks, what is the right play here? 

The right play is to not get in this situation in the first place. you need to shove the flop to maximise your equity in the hand - you fold out lots of hands that are ahead of you, you dont have any difficult decisions on the turn when you miss + you get to see all the way to the river any time that you are called, giving you the best chance of hitting your hand.

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: MTTs - You mission should you choose to accept is.........:

I think u have to base your strategy around your notes of certain players around the tables you r placed on a table with, I would never say play tight early on if u have a really passive table because ur missing out on a lot of spots to pick up chips and vice versa I would never say go gung ho when u have a mad table, basically adapt to how u perceive the players, as a general rule I do like to play abit tight early stages and go through the gears l8a on in the tourney but you cant just base your whole strategy as tight early and loosen up l8a on ! anyways I hope u achieve what you want to achieve an gl
Posted by K8LOU

excellent point, but its good to have a base strategy

craigcu12

this is probably just te sort of thread that I need.
i'm another one who has a u turn with MTTs
with cash games I don't have problems loosing big pots too much, I can pull some smart bluffs my chip stacks rarely go below what they started. yet in tournament I have nightmares winning pots knowing when to bluff is it worth calling as well as so many others.

MP33

In Response to MTTs - You mission should you choose to accept is.........:

I have been debating starting something like this thread and today I thought, lets do it. I play mainly cash and have built a BR that I am comfortable playing NL4 and low stakes MTTs (nothing more than £6 BI) My biggest issue is MTTs, I am just useless at them (Mr Sharkscope say so). Dabosslady is getting more irritated by my wanting to discuss hands with her, particularly when some Great British 4 weddings something or other is on. As much as I enjoy playing cash there is no real susbtitute to the excitment of running deep in an MTT, that excitement has been few and far between me What I am looking to do is maybe post hands from MTTs along with my logic about why I played a hand a certain way. I will not use this as a bad beat moan shop but rather as an area to have my logic ripped to shreds if need be. There are some good players on this site and I was hoping some of you would be willing to help out with a format of poker that I just cant seem to get to grips with.  I honestly do not mind having my play criticised, in fact I am openly encouraging it, as I want to improve my MTT game. This wont be a diary or anything, no targets are being set, I am just looking to post hands and see if my thinking is fundamentally flawed or that I am maybe doing the right thing and in the longer term making winning plays. Thanks for taking the time to read this and I hope you will be willing to add your thoughts to any of the hands I post. 
Posted by dabossman

Gl with thread - Sent you a PM

GaryQQQ

One of the most common mistakes I see is people playing to min-cash. They consider it a success to double their buy-in. Happy to make it in the money with just a few chips left and giving themselves virtually no chance of a win.

This is an unwise and -ev strategy. If a min-cash is so important you're not properly bank-rolled to play in that game.

All the money is in the top 3, you need to be shooting for those places and consider a min-cash to be a failure, barely more attractive than being knocked-out in the very first hand. Look at any reasonably sized MTT lobby and do the maths for yourself. One first place finish is worth so much more than a whole load of those puny min-cashes. Occasional wins will make a much bigger profit than frequent min-cashes.

So you have to have a risk averse attitude and play for the win. That doesn't mean reckless gambling, the best MTT players have what's better described as a killer instinct. They will not back down in big confrontations in carefully chosen spots that offer them the chance to win that big stack that sets them up to go on and take the thing down. Often they'll bust out in big pots looking like fool, but these are the guys who'll make the most money over time. 

dabossman

Thanks for all this everyone, it is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. I took inspiration from for this from Larsons thread but felt I needed to have my own logic analysed for it to be effective. Shhh dont tell him coz I cant ever say that a Shellick fan gave me a good idea

I suppose the moral of the story for the hand I posted was muck it.

This is where I think I am struggling with MTTs. In a cash game I am never folding AJ suited pre unless there has been a lot of action before me. I guess it is a totally different mindset for MTTs than it is to cash games.

In regards the stategies, I think I struggle with the whole playing it tight and looking for spots. You see the blinds going up and your stack either going down or staying static and think "I need to play this". I looked at the AJ and thought this is a big hand, cant let this go especially when all you have been looking at is Q4o, 84o, J2o for the last hour or so. Maybe I am getting too attached to those types of hands in bad spots and this is making me donk off a stack.

I have another couple of hands that I am interested in having reviewed and if I can get them posted without tearing my hair out I will get them up.

Again, thanks for taking the time to help.

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: MTTs - You mission should you choose to accept is.........:

One of the most common mistakes I see is people playing to min-cash. They consider it a success to double their buy-in. Happy to make it in the money with just a few chips left and giving themselves virtually no chance of a win. This is an unwise and -ev strategy. If a min-cash is so important you're not properly bank-rolled to play in that game. All the money is in the top 3, you need to be shooting for those places and consider a min-cash to be a failure, barely more attractive than being knocked-out in the very first hand. Look at any reasonably sized MTT lobby and do the maths for yourself. One first place finish is worth so much more than a whole load of those puny min-cashes. Occasional wins will make a much bigger profit than frequent min-cashes. So you have to have a risk averse attitude and play for the win. That doesn't mean reckless gambling, the best MTT players have what's better described as a killer instinct. They will not back down in big confrontations in carefully chosen spots that offer them the chance to win that big stack that sets them up to go on and take the thing down. Often they'll bust out in big pots looking like fool, but these are the guys who'll make the most money over time. 
e#

The technical term for this is "Maxallying" 

Sorry Alan  

GREGHOGG

The key to winning at mtts on Sky Poker is to punish limpers, punish stealers, and be agressive when it matters. Also adapt your decisions based on your opponant. You might fold a set to one opponent in a specific spot, but snap call vs another opponent in a similar spot with middle pair. Reads ftw.

Also, Play small pots early with a wide range with the hope of stacking people who cannot fold any type of 1 pair hand..

Most Importantly, enjoy it!

Good Luck

rancid

just win flips for a lot of chips

CraigSG1

Ok, my 2p worth:

Read How To Win Poker Tournaments One Hand At A Time vol 1,2,3. They give excellent advice and clarify the thought processes need to win tournaments. They take you from the start, throught the middle and onto the final table.

Practice at (9/10 seaters if pos) Sit and Go's. Not DYM's. These are perfect for understand the different dynamics of MTT's. The beginning, middle and end. You will soon realise the value of needing to stay tight and pick spots early and the value of your chips to needing to find squeeze and steal spots with less than ideal hands as the tournament and stack to blind ratios change. 

One piece of advice for you. When you are looking for that double up, try your hardest to be the one pushing allin first, never try and call off for yourstack unless you have a very decent hand or very good reasons for calling. Pushing with 910 is far better than calling off with K10. Too many times your dominated or an underdog and most of all you lose the fold equity your stack has as your the making the decision and not your opponent. 

dabossman

In Response to Re: MTTs - You mission should you choose to accept is.........:

try doing it through browser hand history and not off the download client I have a similar problem but this way works
Posted by Batkin88

Honestly, tried everything. Used the download and the browser and just keeps happening. At a loss now

dabossman

Trying to get inventive as I still cant post hands, hope this works

as usual, the table is full of limpers. I wake up with 10 10. Decided to raise big to punish the limpers. Is it too much?

When the flop comes down, do I just check give up?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
dabossman	Small blind		20	20	2070
X	Big blind		40	60	1300
	Your hole cards	10
		10
Opponent	Call		40	100	3705
Opponent	Call		40	140	1975
Opponent	Call		40	180	675
X	Call		40	220	3920
dabossman	Raise		280	500	1790
X	Fold
Opponent	Call		260	760	3445
Opponent	Call		260	1020	1715
Opponent	Call		260	1280	415
X	Fold
Flop
	Q		3
		K

dabossman

Well, played the first MTT since I started this, it was the £500 GTD(£2.30 buy) in Bounty Hunter.

I finished 5th overall, really tried to follow the advice given by everyone. Took notes on players all the way through, gave more consideration to stack sizes, folded hands I probably would have played and donked off stack!!!!

I found the early stages of this a real minefield, people were happy calling off raises oop with the biggest junk going.

When it got to the later stages I really tried to put the pressure on around the bubble as I had one of the big stacks. I found I picked up alot of chips that in the past I probably wouldnt have went for.

The bust out was with my nemisis hand, AJ of diamonds. This time I shoved and ran into KK. All in all pleased with the way I played and I hope the deep runs continue. Thanks everyone for all contributions.

craigcu12

dabossman
people say that the late stages of MTT are hardest but with these micro MTT i agree with you and TBH the early stages are the biggest trouble as villians are calling left right and centre with junk
i was in the main tonight and out of the first 16 hands which were dealt on my table their was only 5 got a flop the rest were basically won preflop.
the best type of poker in the micro MTT is probably ABC until the approach of the bubble.

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: MTTs - You mission should you choose to accept is.........:

Trying to get inventive as I still cant post hands, hope this works as usual, the table is full of limpers. I wake up with 10 10. Decided to raise big to punish the limpers. Is it too much? When the flop comes down, do I just check give up? Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance dabossman Small blind   20 20 2070 X Big blind   40 60 1300   Your hole cards 10       10 Opponent Call   40 100 3705 Opponent Call   40 140 1975 Opponent Call   40 180 675 X Call   40 220 3920 dabossman Raise   280 500 1790 X Fold         Opponent Call   260 760 3445 Opponent Call   260 1020 1715 Opponent Call   260 1280 415 X Fold         Flop   Q   3     K      
Posted by dabossman

perfect raise size! - as a general rule, take your normal raise size and add on 1bb for every limper. In early stages i open to 3x normally, and then when the blinds are about 30/60 i start opening to 2x. in this example, its still early so 3x + 4 limpers = 7x = 280

with that many people in the pot, and 2 overcards, yes, unfortunatly this is a spot you should be check giving up on. another general rule for you - dont bluff when there are more than 2 people in the pot - throwing chips away.

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: MTTs - You mission should you choose to accept is.........:

Well, played the first MTT since I started this, it was the £500 GTD(£2.30 buy) in Bounty Hunter. I finished 5th overall, really tried to follow the advice given by everyone. Took notes on players all the way through, gave more consideration to stack sizes, folded hands I probably would have played and donked off stack!!!! I found the early stages of this a real minefield, people were happy calling off raises oop with the biggest junk going. When it got to the later stages I really tried to put the pressure on around the bubble as I had one of the big stacks. I found I picked up alot of chips that in the past I probably wouldnt have went for. The bust out was with my nemisis hand, AJ of diamonds. This time I shoved and ran into KK. All in all pleased with the way I played and I hope the deep runs continue. Thanks everyone for all contributions.
Posted by dabossman

nice work! sounds like you are really listening to everyone and putting all their advice to good use.

 I looooove haveing a big stack at bubble time. And yes, your definatly right about people calling with junk early on - you probably already are doing this, but I find its best just to play pretty much ABC poker against those types of players - they make big mistakes frequently enough for you to beat them that way without getting too creative and getting in trouble

The_Don90

use IE for hand posting, other browsers and the download seem ot be weak on it, i use chrome for everything but posting a sky hand lol