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SHOVE POINT?

THESWISSTHESWISS
edited December 2009 in Poker Chat
3x Raise then shove any flop. They hit the flop 1 in 3 so if they hit your unlucky, if they dont they cant call and you have now increased yourself to 18/19BB (almost like a deepstack) ;-)
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  • THESWISSTHESWISS
    edited December 2009

    One of the most important concepts in poker.

    It has ICM connections but it is a close one.

    You have a PLAYABLE hand in a 6 handed MTT.
    Eg
    UTG      AQ or 88
    Button   A8 or KQ

    There are no bubble issues.

    You have less than 15 BB's
    eg 14 BB's

    Do you shove all in  OR  2.5/3x raise?


    The guys on Cardrunners say shove.

    On the poker million final table this year they also would shove.
    In other words they looked at the hand strength and their position and it was shove or fold.

    It's partly due to the fact that the continuation bet would mean half your stack is gone if you miss the flop.

    You also open yourself up to a possible reraise and you may have to fold.
    Eg You have 66, you raise 2.5/3x & they shove with AK you have to fold. Not ideal, the shove would remove this problem.

    Ed Giddins prefers less than 10bbs before shoving, i think

    Tikay also prefers less than 10bbs, i think.

    James prefers less than 15bbs.

    It's a close one

    What would you do?

    There is no right or wrong but its a close debate.

    PS No limpers


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  • THESWISSTHESWISS
    edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT?:
    3x Raise then shove any flop. They hit the flop 1 in 3 so if they hit your unlucky, if they dont they cant call and you have now increased yourself to 18/19BB (almost like a deepstack) ;-)
    Posted by FlashFlush
    You lose the advantage that they may fold preflop, which is massive.

    Also they may Donk bet. Or they just check raise you with the winning hand.
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  • namesb0ndnamesb0nd
    edited December 2009
    in an MTT i shove but in a SnG i raise
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  • THESWISSTHESWISS
    edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT?:
    in an MTT i shove but in a SnG i raise
    Posted by namesb0nd
    Good point. My bad.

    This is in a MTT, with no bubble issues.
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  • RattiousRattious
    edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT?:
    3x Raise then shove any flop. They hit the flop 1 in 3 so if they hit your unlucky, if they dont they cant call and you have now increased yourself to 18/19BB (almost like a deepstack) ;-)
    Posted by FlashFlush

    You assume they dont know about this 1:3 flop thing and apply that to your actions or that they miss it but they are all around it?

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  • TalonTalon
    edited December 2009
    Too many unknown factors in this equation for me to make a decision. What are we hoping to achieve with the shove?Do we want to take down the blinds or get a call to try and double up. What are the stack sizes and what reads do we have on the players left to act? This will decide whether our shove will get through except if one has a monster.At what stage of the tourny are we at? If we are near the money bubble do we have to risk our tournament at this stage. What is our image at the table? Again this will decide whether it goes through.

     With 14BB we still have a bit of play left in our stack and i would base my decision on these as yet unknown factors. If i was below 10BB this would be an instant shove for me but at 14BB i am prepared to wait for the right spot
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG
    edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT?:
    Too many unknown factors in this equation for me to make a decision. What are we hoping to achieve with the shove?Do we want to take down the blinds or get a call to try and double up. What are the stack sizes and what reads do we have on the players left to act? This will decide whether our shove will get through except if one has a monster.At what stage of the tourny are we at? If we are near the money bubble do we have to risk our tournament at this stage. What is our image at the table? Again this will decide whether it goes through.  With 14BB we still have a bit of play left in our stack and i would base my decision on these as yet unknown factors. If i was below 10BB this would be an instant shove for me but at 14BB i am prepared to wait for the right spot
    Posted by Talon

    my thoughts exactly, great post
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  • RattiousRattious
    edited December 2009

    Good post Swiss but I can see its being over analysed..

    Can I jump in with a suggestion?

    Assume you have just been moved to a new table one hand ago and that by the time you are in the blinds again they probably will go up.  Answering the OP - do you make a standard raise and risk post flop play with one or more players or do you attempt to take the blinds with the risk of maybe one call?
     
    I shove - happy to take the blinds OR to get one call with a double up chance.

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  • RattiousRattious
    edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT?:
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT? : Greg your shove point is 5 bbs or less. Youngster is the same. I'm not saying what is right or wrong, but the pro's seem to adopt less than 15. James also likes 15.
    Posted by THESWISS
    Lol touche - and the shove point is therefore not dependent on a playable hand....
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  • dantb10dantb10
    edited December 2009
    shove
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  • Nutter5932Nutter5932
    edited December 2009
    ha amazing dan !

    Personally i 3x open see a flop

    3 x open fold to a shove if shoved upon

    Its how you play the game though thats just mine
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT?:
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT? : Remember you have a playable hand. KQ AJ 10's etc Position is the cut off. The aim is they fold and you win the blinds or they call you and you out flop them. Stack sizes do not matter and assume there are no bubble issues. In poker million this year if they decided to play a hand eg it was strong enough for their position on the table & they had less than 15BB's they shoved every time. Cardrunners also gives the same advice.
    Posted by THESWISS
    Stack sizes matter to me.
    If the blinds have a similar (or smaller) stack to me, I'm shoving.
    If they have much bigger stacks than me, I am raising 3x.
    The reason for this is that I think a big stack is more likely to just call a 3x bet which gives me the post-flop options that have been mentioned previously. If the blinds have a relatively small stack they are much more likely to 3-bet aipf and I want to take this play away from them.
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  • THESWISSTHESWISS
    edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT?:
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT? : Stack sizes matter to me. If the blinds have a similar (or smaller) stack to me, I'm shoving. If they have much bigger stacks than me, I am raising 3x. The reason for this is that I think a big stack is more likely to just call a 3x bet which gives me the post-flop options that have been mentioned previously. If the blinds have a relatively small stack they are much more likely to 3-bet aipf and I want to take this play away from them.
    Posted by MereNovice
    Hi Mere,

    One of the main reasons for the shove is that if you 3x and miss the flop and then C bet, half your stack has gone. If they then reraise the C bet you then have to fold or even worse you possibly have odds to call with two overs.

    It takes away them being able to reraise preflop and you then may have to fold, you may even be folding the best hand.

    If they are short stacked or not does really matter, the pros will make the shove regardless.
    But for purposes of the question assume they have more chips than you.
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  • THESWISSTHESWISS
    edited December 2009

    I have always previously preferred waiting for less than 10 BB's before shoving with playable hands in playable positions.

    I'm now not sure, less than 15 may now be best.

    Tikay and James your thoughts?

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  • KnackersYaKnackersYa
    edited December 2009
    Shove for me, you have no fold equity to the re-raise and your shove looks stronger because of your stack size.
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  • TENOFSPADETENOFSPADE
    edited December 2009
    hi ed ,for me alot depends on the stack sizes bhind you,if ur up against the chipleader or a big stack in the bb,u will probably get no respect for your 3x raise,then you will  have too put a c-bet in ,if u miss the flop.......that makes u pot commited ,so you may as well shove pre flop against large stacks ...........i usually waited till i had 6 or 7 bb to shove in the (old structure) open,i think u could wait till about ten bb in the new structured open,myself personally if ive got 15 bb against a large stack in bb im jamming  ten
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT?:
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT? : Hi Mere, One of the main reasons for the shove is that if you 3x and miss the flop and then C bet, half your stack has gone. If they then reraise the C bet you then have to fold or even worse you possibly have odds to call with two overs. It takes away them being able to reraise preflop and you then may have to fold, you may even be folding the best hand. If they are short stacked or not does really matter, the pros will make the shove regardless. But for purposes of the question assume they have more chips than you.
    Posted by THESWISS
    The pros aren't generally playing in tournaments that are structured like those on SkyPoker.
    I'm raising 3*bb against bigger stacks and then shoving on any flop that is checked to me.
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  • THESWISSTHESWISS
    edited December 2009
    Thanks everyone, some interesting ideas.

    After careful consideration i have decided to limp blind & then call a shove.
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  • PILLOWMANPILLOWMAN
    edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT?:
    Thanks everyone, some interesting ideas. After careful consideration i have decided to limp blind & then call a shove.
    Posted by THESWISS
    ENJOYED THIS THREAD . WOULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW YOU CAME TO THE ABOVE DECISION.
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  • THESWISSTHESWISS
    edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT?:
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT? : ENJOYED THIS THREAD . WOULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW YOU CAME TO THE ABOVE DECISION.
    Posted by PILLOWMAN
    That bit was just a joke Pillowman.
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  • PILLOWMANPILLOWMAN
    edited December 2009
    LOL , GOOD . BECAUSE I COULDN'T FIGURE IT OUT . I PLAYED MY FIRST OMAHA GAME TODAY , MY HEAD HURTS ;)
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  • J-HartiganJ-Hartigan
    edited December 2009
    With around 15bbs, the best strategy is to wait for an opportunity to three-bet shove against an opponent with >30bbs who's opened for 2.5/3x.

    But, if you're UTG, or the action's folded to you in the cut-off or on the button, then I think you should open-shove.

    You can only justify a 3x raise here, if you're prepared to stick the rest in if you get re-raised.  If you fold to a three-bet, all you've achieved is gifting away 20% of your stack!  And, when you're in the danger zone, you need to conserve chips.

    Assuming you're prepared to go all the way, question is: why not give yourself the added fold equity by shoving, rather than being forced to call all-in?

    The bb may call for an additional 2bbs with a pretty broad range.  But is he really going to get involved with anything less than premium cards if he's being asked to stick a huge percentage of his stack in the middle - with no opportunity to bluff you off the hand?

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  • THESWISSTHESWISS
    edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT?:
    With around 15bbs, the best strategy is to wait for an opportunity to three-bet shove against an opponent with />30bbs who's opened for 2.5/3x. But, if you're UTG, or the action's folded to you in the cut-off or on the button, then I think you should open-shove. You can only justify a 3x raise here, if you're prepared to stick the rest in if you get re-raised.  If you fold to a three-bet, all you've achieved is gifting away 20% of your stack!  And, when you're in the danger zone, you need to conserve chips. Assuming you're prepared to go all the way, question is: why not give yourself the added fold equity by shoving, rather than being forced to call all-in? The bb may call for an additional 2bbs with a pretty broad range.  But is he really going to get involved with anything less than premium cards if he's being asked to stick a huge percentage of his stack in the middle - with no opportunity to bluff you off the hand?
    Posted by J-Hartigan
    Thanks James, i thought you'd say that. Appreciate the detailed answer.

    The tricky bit now is working out the hand ranges that are good enough to shove in various positions. I know them fairly well but it would be nice to master them. I need to download an ICM tool.
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  • PILLOWMANPILLOWMAN
    edited December 2009

    MY RULE IS 10 BIG BLINDS . FROM THEN ITS  MAINLY SHOVE OR FOLD . NOW AND AGAIN , I MIGHT CALL A MIN RAISE IF IM IN THE BIG BLIND AND THERE ARE MULTIPLE PLAYERS IN THE POT . RECENTLY , I DECIDED TO START USING THE 15 B/B RULE AND JUST SEEM TO COME UNSTUCK EACH TIME . I HAVE NOT GOT A LONG ENOUGH SAMPLE OF SITUATIONS TO BE SURE AND NO WAY OF ANALYSING THE HANDS I DID IT WITH BUT I AM WONDERING IF THE HANDS I AM SHOVING WITH HAS CHANGED . MAYBE IT IS JUST SELECTIVE MEMORY !!!

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  • PILLOWMANPILLOWMAN
    edited December 2009
    LOL , I HAD NOT SEEN YOUR POST BEFORE POSTING MINE . I AM OFF GOOGLING STRAIGHT AWAY . TY.
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  • PILLOWMANPILLOWMAN
    edited December 2009
    ANY RECOMMENDATIONS ????
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  • THESWISSTHESWISS
    edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT?:
    LOL , I HAD NOT SEEN YOUR POST BEFORE POSTING MINE . I AM OFF GOOGLING STRAIGHT AWAY . TY.
    Posted by PILLOWMAN
    No worries. I know there are a couple of good ICM tools out there. Cardrunners use them a lot.
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  • PILLOWMANPILLOWMAN
    edited December 2009
    THXS . CARDRUNNERS , ICM , TAP DANCING , X. FACTOR . NOT A CLUE BUT WILLING TO LEARN .
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  • THESWISSTHESWISS
    edited December 2009
    In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT?:
    ANY RECOMMENDATIONS ????
    Posted by PILLOWMAN

    http://www.holdemreview.com/icm-sit-and-go-odds-calculators/

    This may help.
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  • PILLOWMANPILLOWMAN
    edited December 2009
    JUST READ 1 ARTICLE AND LEARNED SOMETHING ALREADY . FOR A DEFINITIVE ANSWER , I WILL GET BACK TO YOU IN ABOUT 10 YEARS TIME ;) . MUCH APPRECIATED , TY .
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