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I can do all three options if I have 15 x BB's, which, for MY game, is deep-stacked. (Assuming a well-structured Tourney).
I often shove there, but if I'm on my game, & focussed (& not answering zillions of Chat-Box questions), my preferred play is about 4 x BB.
In my case, I can get off this if it goes wrong & still have plenty of Blinds - 11 in this case. In fact, I can repeat it the next hand, & STILL get off it.
When I Final in the uber-slow & beautifully structured 7.30 Deepie (quite frequently, as it happens) , I am almost always Billy Low Stack, & rarely have more than 6 or 7 x BB's. That's plenty, if your instinct for "the right spot" is keen.
I'm out on a limb here, swimming against the tide, I know, & "The Kidz" rib me mercilessly about my Nit-Ness & foldability. But none of them have even won the £750 buy-in UK Open after returning on Day Two with ONE Big Blind, now have they? ........;)
Don't push too soon is my advice. It's the current fashion to be shoving with as many as 15 x BB. I think that's just ridiculous, to be frank. Tournament Life on the Internet is given away far too lightly, because another Tourney will be starting in 5 minutes.
I agree with you that tournament survival is key, and have previously always adopted the less than 10bbs approach.
It's a tricky choice.
I'm afraid The Kidz got their message across well, that 15 Bigs was the pushing point, & now it's enshrined in Online Poker Lore.
Across Online Poker, I dread to think how many tens of milions of pounds/dollars have been thrown away by this one basic error.
But the kids got the word out, & nobody was brave enough to think it through & challenge it.
I think the 15bb shove relies too much on brute force and luck (although, like tikay i dont rule it out and do use it in certain situations, for example if the blinds are defending every time to a normal raise)
An interesting difference of opinion... While you think it's "ridiculous" to shove for 15bbs, I think it's utterly ludicrous to stick more than a QUARTER of your stack in the pot and then fold to a re-raise!
Plenty of these "Kidz" are doing alright adopting a very aggressive pre-flop strategy to NLHE MTTs, including the Card Players pros and the likes of Jason Mercier, Shaun Deeb, Christian Harder, Adam Junglen, Carter Phillips and Aaron Gustavson.
Luckily, we all play the game our own way.
If we have 15 x BB & get re-Raised, can you explain exactly WHY it's deemed the ultimate sin to Pass to a shove? Let's assume you have a read, or have "made a move", you are proposing that we have to say" too bad, I've Raised, the Kidz will mock me if I Pass, I read that it on a Forum somewhere, so I call"?
I'm sorry, but that kite will never fly. Not with me, anyway.
Don't rush into replying - have your dinner first.
Yes, lots of kids are doing fine by adopting pre-flop aggro.
Lots are going busto, too, - FAR more than you realise - or have to be staked to overcome variance. Why? That answers itself.
What is so magic about the figure of 15?
It's a personal preference, not a maxim we should indoctrinate into those who unthinkingly follow the herd, without knowing "why".
And remind me. What exacty is wrong with laddering into 4th or 5th place?......... A poker players FIRST priority is to fund his poker habit. And he does that by garnering repeated cashes, not "I WON IT" headlines. Well, the ones who wanna stay solvent do.......
I said.....
Don't push too soon is my advice. It's the current fashion to be shoving with as many as 15 x BB. I think that's just ridiculous, to be frank. Tournament Life on the Internet is given away far too lightly, because another Tourney will be starting in 5 minutes.
That was not in response to you, or anything you said.
Now, I have seen your mode of dress, in Vegas, so I do think you are ridiculous, but I'd never say that, Heaven forbid.
Pugil sticks round two??
Sorry to Tikay and James, i knew it was a good topic but i did not expect World War III.
Hopefully my next thread will not be as heated.
It's called "Does God exist?"
14/15bb's in an mtt is clearly (as proved by the discussion here) a slightly awkward stack. I'm with Tikay in that open shoving this size feels wrong, certainly on SKY where there are no antes, but equally I am never raise/folding so am with James there. For me its passing hands like 55/a9 etc or looking to 3 bet shove (but only where you believe there is genuine fold equity) Having said that AQ (utg) was mentioned in the original post and that is easily a strong enough hand to raise on a 6 handed table to INDUCE a shove. I'm happily calling 100% of players in that spot.
It may seem that way, but I'm not in the least cross, or upset, (though I am very busy) I'm just trying to explain something which troubles me greatly - so many inexperienced players believe all this 15 x BB nonsense, then wonder why they need staking, never make money, & it troubles me deeply.
And if the debate has shown just one player that there is another way, that they could think for themselves, & forget all the "hand in the air, fist pump, I call" peer pressure they get from reading the nosebleed level poker forums, they'd do a lot better. Or less worse.
What, effectively, is the difference between 11 or 12 x BB & 15 x BB?
I don't like to Raise-Fold - in fact, that's a bit of a dumb thing to say - nobody does, that's self-evident. But we have to do things we don't like sometimes. And if the "answer" I get back from a 4 x BB Bet leaving me 11 x BB is that I am in bad shape, I'm folding quicker than Hartigan disappears when her indoors says "dinner's ready James".
Sometimes the best thing to do is the thing you least want to do. But if our Tourney life depends upon it, we gotta learn to go with it. With 11 x BB we ARE still in, & that's key. We gotta be in it to win it.
What I would NEVER do though is Raise 4 x BB then go & have my dinner. That's -Ev poker, but +Ev domestic harmony if you are under the thumb.
Next case.
Next action would depend on many factors; opponents reaction, his observed style so far, table dynamics, etc.
With 14/15bb's I would never raise/fold because once people know you do that, you really are a soft target to be re-popped. If you're happily raising all these marginal hands, but only prepared to go further with the absoulute zenith of your pre-flop raising range then that's fairly exploitable. Equally I'm calling when I'm raised all in with my AQ-10,10 etc because more often than not I will be getting at the very least a fair price, and many occasions will be ahead against people who believed they had fold equity and shoved with marginal holdings.
Each to their own though.
You Sir, get the prize. I'm assuming you are over 40, yes?
Sadly, current society being what it is, there is a tendencey in life & in poker to say "I can't be bothered to dig myself out of this spot" when the wind is in people's faces.
It's the best part of poker - struggling against the Blinds with a short stack, & succeeding. Jamming 15 x Bigs in pre & saying "oh well, what will be will be" is not very satisfying, to my mind. I wonder how these shove-monkeys* would cope with a well-structured Pot Limit Tourney?
* I jest, of course.
OWNED.