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My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play
THEThe logic behind me calling here was to play my position and play against him post-flop, something which Jac35 did not factor in when berating me for calling him with K6s pre-flop. I have to question his call with top pair, 2nd kicker, calling off 5.6k into 8.8k pot. He's losing to JJJ, KJ, 666, QTd. Ruled out AQd as he'd expect me to ship it pf.He's flipping against ATd,A6d 50/50 and is marginally ahead 55/45 vs all Ax flush draws.Now does he really think Im shipping here with KT, QTo?I got lucky and spiked 2 pair, shoved on him making him think it's a flush draw, knowing he's going to call me off with AK, and KQ.Thoughts on the hand? Hand History #696444924 (21:52 04/10/2013)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancenachocheesSmall blind 75.0075.0013850.00scousestarBig blind 150.00225.0015860.00 Your hole cardsK6 cullumFold MRLUCKYCall 150.00375.0011545.00Jac35Raise 510.00885.0022845.00DoubleAAACall 510.001395.006362.50nachocheesFold scousestarFold MRLUCKYCall 360.001755.0011185.00Flop K6J MRLUCKYCheck Jac35Bet 750.002505.0022095.00DoubleAAAAll-in 6362.508867.500.00MRLUCKYFold Jac35Call 5612.5014480.0016482.50Jac35ShowKQ DoubleAAAShowK6 Turn 6 River 3 DoubleAAAWinFull House, 6s and Kings14480.00 14480.00
Comments
A2s-ATs
KTs,KJs,KTo,KJo
QTs,QTo
66,JJ
If we remove KT and QT then it's 33/67 to me.
Quite funny looking through this thread.
Only one conclusion comes to mind. Berating someone in the chatbox in front of 4 or 5 witnesses is not good at all and shouldnt really happen. But then in revenge to go onto a public forum to berate the player back shows a considerable lack of class.
So the conclusion his berating of you was bad, the whole purpose of this thread is far worse though
Calling in position pf with a wide range is ok - K6 maybe a bit too wide for my taste - but ok, Personally to get that wide I would rather be raising an unopened pot or a passive limper.
If you were planning to c-bet a check and take most pots down then that's a reasonable strategy for accumulating chips mid-tourney. 2nd caller makes the odds of getting away with that a bit thin though.
Given likely tight range of your villain and having another player in the hand, overall I think your call has -ve expectation long term.
You were lucky to hit 2 pair and have opponent hit TP/2nd Kicker and then you got it all-in good so wp there.
Back to the ethics...
Don't agree with the bad chat
Don't agree with the named post here either.
I think an unnamed analyse my hand post would be better received on this forum.
any board where your gonna have to float to take it away or rarley 3way get the opportunity where it does get checked to you there probally not c/folding. your now trying to make excuses for your pre flop call with 45bb , and giving incorrect math to try and back it up- your not going to make me change my mind when i know im right no matter what %% your throw in your arguments-
It's all very good now saying I won't get stacked unless it's K-high, but how dya know he hasn't flatted with JJ/TT/99 and isn't gonna fold, or flatted with 22-88 and flops a set, or flats with something that gives him a strong enough draw to call off (which may still have you beat with just A-high). Or he has KJ and you're crushed, or a million other possibilties.
Cold calling 3bets with K6s this shallow just won't be good.
did you have any history with this opponent?
You seemed keen to play him post flop.
Presumably you had used aggression+position to get him off hands before?
Triple A - breathe and move on.
Cold calling iso's with K6s this shallow is generally gonna be bad unless you're some kind of post flop beast. The rest of what I said still applies.
If he flats the 3bet which I doubt he will very often cos he's a decent player and won't be flatting too many 3bets OOP, then you're repping big, and have a much bigger pot to win when he misses the vast majority of the time. Plus you get to do all this without having to risk your whole stack.
I agree with people suggesting that your plan was not a good one and will not be profitable in the long run. I also think that your whole justification in this thread has been "Jac35 has KQ and therefore my play will result in..." but you have no idea that he doesn't have AA, KK, QQ JJ, KJ, etc. If he has one of those hands, it's not just "bad timing" to bluff a flop and get called, as you say, it's part of his range and part of the EV of the play.
We also need to examine whether shoving the flop is the best way to bluff anyway. Over Jac's bet of 750, we shove 6k to win 2.5k. Let's assume you do carry out your plan to shove on a QJ4 flop, or similar which we've missed. We need that bluff to get through two opponents more than 70% of the time to break even. On a flop like this, we're not likely to get it through that often because so many strong draws and strong made hands are likely.
So planning to shove any non-Ace flop is just not a good plan. We will get away with it more on dry flops like 923 or similar, but we have to bear in mind that we're not really representing any big hand when we do this. People will not believe that we'll make that shove with a set because we'd fold out too much of their range and we're unlikely to have AA, KK, QQ or AK having not 3-bet pre-flop. So we're basically trying to make out that we have JJ or TT and didn't 3-bet pre-flop but are now making the mistake of giving our opponent the chance to fold his AK, AQ, etc...
I'm afraid I don't think this was a good plan.
Moving on from that, we need to examine the logic of your shove. You say you think that a call of this shove with just KQ is questionable and presumably you think Jac isn't a bad player, so why on Earth are we shoving?
If we're not thinking that J6 is in Jac's range, then the best hand that we're currently beating is AA, AK is second and KQ is the third best hand we're beating. If we think our shove should get him to fold out all the hands we're beating up to the third best, the shove is terrible. We know he's calling us with all his better hands and we fold out most of his weaker ones. We're really only getting called by draws that have good equity against us, like QdTd, or hands that have us beat, if your ideas on Jac's calling range are correct.
As it happens, I think Jac is justified in making the call. If he has some reads on your play then he's definitely ahead of your range. If he doesn't have those reads it is much closer, but you do look like you're playing a draw a lot and he beats all the one-pair hands in your range. Unknown villain's are likely to 3-bet AK, KK and JJ pre-flop and unlikely to peel with J6 and K6. He's basically losing to 66 and KJ in the likely range of an unknown, beating all the one-pairs and in a good situation against the draws.
Even if I did like your pre-flop plan, I think you need to adjust it when you smash the flop like this. If you held the view that he would be folding his KQ hands, the shove was really bad. If you agree with me that he's likely to call with KQ and big draws, I still don't like the shove. We give him a great chance to get away from weaker Kings, QQ, Jacks, etc. without putting more money in the pot.
As for the intentions of this post, I'm going to take your word for it that you weren't intending to berate Jac and were just trying to defend yourself. I've never seen you abusing anyone before, so...
I will also say that I think it's very unlikely that Jac was intending to berate you, either. My experience with him would suggest that's out of character.
Hope to see some of you on the felt and I will say hi as per usual, and just think, now you guys know that I play K6s on the btn and my way of thinking, it shall certainly make for some interesting play. Somehow we have created a meta-tag game as now you guys will be wondering if im shoving light and if I'm flatting you light IP.
At the end of the day, it's only a game, a game that we all enjoy and is excellent to discuss.
On a side note to BorinLorner, you're correct I did not know he had KQ, I was just doing the maths using KQ as he knew what his hand was. His range is actually quite wide, like I had stated earlier.
Here is the actual opening range that I would put him on:
A2s+,A7o+,
22+
KTo+,JTs+,QJo+
21.3%
This would be the cbet range that I would put him on:
66,JJ-AA,
AJo+,A2s+,QTo+,QTs+,
13.7%
Given the flop of Kd 5h Jd (I have changed the 6 for a 5 so it only gies me top pair) this makes me 53% vs his cbet range.
His calling range when we shove I would make it as follows:
55,JJ,KK+,
KJo+,KJs+,QTs+
A2s+
9.1%
So when he calls our flop shove we are 45% to win.
So to recap....
He cbets 64.3% of the time making the pot 2.5k
When we shove 100% of the time he calls us 66.4% (9.1%/13.7%)
He checks flop, we bet, we take it down 35.7% of the time giving us +607
So he calls our shove 66%, so the times he folds 34% we win = +850
When he calls our shove we win the pot 45% of the time = +6165.
When he calls our shove and wins 55% = -7535 (difference -1370)
1457-1370= +87chips.
So this is certainly not spewy and a long term losing play given those figures but If I have gone wrong anywhere with these calculations please let me know as I haven't had any sleep for the past 30hrs!
Thank you once again for taking the time to read through my thoughts whether it be right or wrong and adding your own thoughts. This is how we ALL improve.