20NL Mastercash - C/R Turn w/ GS + FD

Lambert180 · October 2013

No notes on villian but I think we can say they probably aren't particularly great just from the 3b size.

Thoughts on my line here? Didn't see any benefit in 4betting pre and obv just never folding 9Ts for that price this deep.

C/C I think is fine on this flop, don't think we should be check/folding or donking or c/r.

The turn, I pick up a little extra equity with my GS on the turn, don't really wanna be taking a passive C/C line hoping to hit, playing fit or fold, and it's also a spot where I'd often take a similar line flop and turn with big hands like sets.

What do you think about the turn check/raise? My only concern was something that I think Lnarinoo mentioned on one of Ivan's hands recently that check/raising could potentially force ourselves to get blown off the hand if they come back over the top... just seems like such a super narrow range of hands they can come back over the top of me though.

EDIT: Looking back at it now, dya think if I do c/r, it shuold be a bit bigger, more like £11?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Diminuendo	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£71.75
rancid	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£41.43
	Your hole cards	10 9
Chrissy_C	Fold
middys	Fold
Lambert180	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£52.09
X	Raise		£1.60	£2.50	£37.41
Diminuendo	Fold
rancid	Fold
Lambert180	Call		£1.00	£3.50	£51.09
Flop
		6 A J
Lambert180	Check
X	Bet		£1.75	£5.25	£35.66
Lambert180	Call		£1.75	£7.00	£49.34
Turn
		7
Lambert180	Check
X	Bet		£3.50	£10.50	£32.16
Lambert180	Raise		£9.10	£19.60	£40.24

IDONKCALLU · October 2013

what are u repping when u raise the turn ?

i like the line but i prefer a donk lead on the turn with alot of equity in the pot

ya repping nowt on a blank turn as u raised u have to barrel the river and alot will call u

Lambert180 · October 2013

How am I repping nothing? I could easily take this exact same line with 66/77/AJ, sometimes JJ if I've flatted the 3b pre. That was what I said in OP, I'd take this same line with some bigger hands, so thought it'd be good to include some hands like this with decent equity.

I know I have to barrel alot of rivers, I'm prepared for that

IDONKCALLU · October 2013

but u would raise the flop if u have a set to play for stacks

to call a flop bet u never gonna play for stacks the line makes no sense

gazza127 · October 2013

I prefer check/raising flop. We can rep a much greater range of hands come later streets.

I kind of agree that flatting with 66/JJ is never going to be good on such a wet board on the flop. So when you do flat its less likely you have them IMO. You dont have 77 - why would you call the flop if you did?

Best made hand we rep IMO is A7.

So if I was villain... id be convinced you either had A7 or a hand with decent equity. A7 less likely as you called a 3 bet out of position pre.

I dont like the turn raise for this reason... we cant rep many made hands well enough to get a fold from Ax. As played i'd flat the turn and depending on river either fold or raise (either as bluff or value depending on river).

Dumbmo · October 2013

Hate the turn c/r.

Flop smashes his range.

Why are u raising with all that equity risking being shipped on.

Given oppos line c/c easy best option as he probs has at the very least top pair and if u hit flush he probs wudnt fold to 3/4 pot bet on river.

Also, if u hit o/s 8 ball check raise and get the big $$$.

I dont see the point in raising someone who is unlikely to fold when u got so much equity in the hand.

Stu

GELDY · October 2013

In Response to 20NL Mastercash - C/R Turn w/ GS + FD:

No notes on villian but I think we can say they probably aren't particularly great just from the 3b size. Thoughts on my line here? Didn't see any benefit in 4betting pre and obv just never folding 9Ts for that price this deep. C/C I think is fine on this flop, don't think we should be check/folding or donking or c/r. The turn, I pick up a little extra equity with my GS on the turn, don't really wanna be taking a passive C/C line hoping to hit, playing fit or fold, and it's also a spot where I'd often take a similar line flop and turn with big hands like sets. What do you think about the turn check/raise? My only concern was something that I think Lnarinoo mentioned on one of Ivan's hands recently that check/raising could potentially force ourselves to get blown off the hand if they come back over the top... just seems like such a super narrow range of hands they can come back over the top of me though. EDIT: Looking back at it now, dya think if I do c/r, it shuold be a bit bigger, more like £11? Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance Diminuendo Small blind £0.10 £0.10 £71.75 rancid Big blind £0.20 £0.30 £41.43 Your hole cards 10 9 Chrissy_C Fold middys Fold Lambert180 Raise £0.60 £0.90 £52.09 X Raise £1.60 £2.50 £37.41 Diminuendo Fold rancid Fold Lambert180 Call £1.00 £3.50 £51.09 Flop 6 A J Lambert180 Check X Bet £1.75 £5.25 £35.66 Lambert180 Call £1.75 £7.00 £49.34 Turn 7 Lambert180 Check X Bet £3.50 £10.50 £32.16 Lambert180 Raise £9.10 £19.60 £40.24
Posted by Lambert180

not if he puts you on a draw - in which case he can shove now or on a safe river card

& if he has reads on you he will know you like to mix it up

given all that not sure finessing the size of the bet makes much difference

Lambert180 · October 2013

I don't think I can rep a much wider range by c/r the flop though. I don't think flatting with 66/JJ some of the time is bad at all, it's really not that wet. If I had a set what am I really scared of? He has very few outs if he has a GS to broadway, or he can have FD which I have redraws to beat but other than that, what am I scared of really, except AJ making a better house when I have 66 but that's just a cooler.

Also what can I play for stacks with this deep if I c/r the flop? If he has AJ and I've coolered him, yes, he's deffo gonna continue with the NFD as he'll have TP too but other than that, even if he has like AKo, I doubt he's gonna get 200xBB in w/ TPTK.

I reckon raising the turn gets folds from pretty much every non-2pr Ax and definitely Jx which imo are hands that are obv ahead now but I don't think would even pay me off if I do hit anyway. Whereas c/r the flop I don't think is ever getting folds from Ax

Also, don't think the implied odds are great with the more passive line, if I C/C x 2 and then donk lead a completed flush card or c/r a completed flush card, I'm probably never getting paid off cos it's looks so much like what it is. An 8 I can get paid but that is a smaller part of my equity.

gazza127 · October 2013

So if you have a set of sixes and you decide to flat the flop - no idea why you'd do that tbh.... what happens if the 10 of spades comes down on the turn?

Do you C/R on the turn now? There are now way more hands that beat you that you let get there and a whole bunch of others with decent enough equity to call on the turn too.

Do you not think that C/R the flop then barrelling the turn and possibly river gets many people off many one pair Ax hands? You certainly rep a stronger range from the outset. I think we need to playing this hand OOP very aggressively from the outset. As you said you didnt want to just call down for our draw but I do think we do this a street too late.

I just dont think the turn C/R is going to work a bunch of the time as to me at least it doesnt make too much sense. It certainly looks like a hand you have or a KJ type hand of diamonds for example.

Sorry Lambert but you did ask...

rancid · October 2013

Your repping a narrow range so the only question is can villian fold the holdings you want them to fold
Have you actually got any reads, can vill fold top pair will they have draws/2nd pr/2 prs when they get to turn

also when you raise turn, if you can't call a shove your actually setting money on fire

doing this readless is a bit spewy, you say they are bad because of 3 bet size - does this mean they gonna fold!

Also how do you rep a wider range on the turn than on the flop ?

Gotta say you make a lot of population reads, some spots where you just need specific reads.

F_Ivanovic · October 2013

Well I'm going to break the trend and think that your play is completely fine. If he had bet turn larger then I'm much more inclined to not make this move as the risk of him coming over the top and blowing us off our equity is stronger. But vs a half pot bet on a medium-wet board with stacks this deep we can assume he doesn't have a hand that wants to play for stacks.

Everyone is talking about balance in this spot but:

1) villan is a random, we don't need to necessarily worry about balance too much.

2) I'm definitely going to play a set this way a good % of the time anyway especially against someone that will double barrel a lot. We can play for stacks easily enough by playing it this way.

Also, the board as Lambert pointed out is NOT that wet. If it was a 679 2 tone on the flop I'm much less inclined to slow play a set but here the only thing we are worried about is a flush draw. Most of his range though will be drawing very thin vs a set though. Ofc it sucks a bit when the turn card is a Ts but that's poker for you. We just have to adjust how we're going to play the hand. Had we raised flop he'd probably be calling with any hands that are helped by the Ts anyway.

Oh yeah regarding pre-flop I don't think we can say villain is not very good based on his sizing here. In position I'm quite happy to make smaller 3-bets to isolate 1 opponent when deep with them. But then I will have a wider un-polarised 3-bet range. Whether villain does or not I don't really know!

gazza127 · October 2013

Also, if you think their sizing pre means weakness... as in they arent clued up on how much to bet, then how do you know that the half pot bet sizing on the flop and turn isnt actually their way of playing a massive hand. Maybe this is a villain who doesnt know how to extract max value and he is afraid of losing his customer if he flopped top set for example.

You say you dont have any reads. You are OOP and have no idea what villain is holding. You dont know if villain is capable of folding top pair if you miss and barrel again. IMO you've just turned your hand with decent equity onto the turn into a massive bluff, praying oppo folds (but have no idea if he's capable of doing so) if you miss the river, and just getting quite lucky if you hit with just the one card to come.

Lambert180 · October 2013

Well yeah Ivan covered the thing about if the Ts comes on the turn when I have a set, just gotta deal with it and adjust but we'll see horrible turn cards like Ts far less than safe cards which is why I would flat sets on the flop a lot here.

The slightly small 3b isn't a big deal tbh and I'm not playing the hand based on that, was just pointing out I have no reads on opponent and this was the only obversation I could make. It's not even a big deal, but it's slightly smaller than standard and would expdect if anything to go a little bigger 200xBB deep

I'm readless so obv I don't have any reads on bet sizing, or whether they can get off certain hands so I have to paly the hand the best I can in a vacuum, and imo without reads I think we have to assume people are not stacking off 200xBB deep with TPNK/2ndpr etc. Doubt they'll be making light call downs until they have reads on me which they wont have

BorinLoner · October 2013

I agree that we can't think of this as a particularly wet flop, especially against a 3-better's range. Yes, he might have AQs or AKs, but those are only two combinations of cards in a range that's typically going to have at least 20 combinations of hands, assuming a relatively tight 3-bet range.

Anyway, we could very easily rep a set here. The one thing we can say, and which is demonstrated by some of the comments in this thread, is that we don't look like we're taking a typical drawing line. Generally speaking, turn check-raises are stronger than flop check-raises, too.

I'd also agree that we can take some basic reads on villain's play that he's unlikely to be delighted with his hand. Yes, he might just be sizing his bets poorly with a set of Aces, but most of the time this line is going to be exactly what it looks like: Relative weakness.

I agree that specific reads would be nice and it would be very helpful indeed to know that this guy isn't just going to station us off with his Ax hands.

The one argument I would make against this plan to check-raise the turn is that when we wait until the turn, we're check-raising against a stronger range than on the flop. If villain is holding QQ, JJ or maybe even TT, he could very well c-bet the flop but most of the time villains are going to check-back the turn on an Ace-high flop. So when check-raising the flop we can believe we're getting the villain off those pairs, but check-raising the turn we're only hoping to get him off his Ax hands... and we don't know if he can fold those.

Of course if he checks back those QQ or JJ then on the flop we're getting 25% pot odds with 38% equity when we see two cards, so check-calling flop to check turn is fine.

We're very much repping a narrow value range with the check-raise, especially on a turn that can't have helped us, but then we're not calling pre-flop just to check-call down on a draw. We do have decent pot odds to make the call on the turn, though, and we have the problem of him coming over the top when we raise, stealing our equity by forcing us to fold... If we call the turn we don't have to get a lot more on the river to make it +EV.

I don't mind the delayed check-raise and I don't think it's unbalanced. I do think it's repping a narrow range against someone we don't know can fold, though.

BorinLoner · October 2013

In Response to Re: 20NL Mastercash - C/R Turn w/ GS + FD:

Also what can I play for stacks with this deep if I c/r the flop? If he has AJ and I've coolered him, yes, he's deffo gonna continue with the NFD as he'll have TP too but other than that, even if he has like AKo, I doubt he's gonna get 200xBB in w/ TPTK. I reckon raising the turn gets folds from pretty much every non-2pr Ax and definitely Jx which imo are hands that are obv ahead now but I don't think would even pay me off if I do hit anyway. Whereas c/r the flop I don't think is ever getting folds from Ax Posted by Lambert180

Erm... which is it? Is he folding his Ax hands when we check-raise the flop or not?

Lambert180 · October 2013

What I meant is that, as you say check/raising the turn looks much stronger and it becomes a case of 'if I call here I'm probably gonna be facing a river bet for virtually my whole stack with just TP'.

Whereas if I c/r the flop then I think he will still call with Ax cos it's more likely I'm on a draw and he can be just hoping I slow down

gazza127 · October 2013

Well what happened?

BorinLoner · October 2013

In Response to Re: 20NL Mastercash - C/R Turn w/ GS + FD:

What I meant is that, as you say check/raising the turn looks much stronger and it becomes a case of 'if I call here I'm probably gonna be facing a river bet for virtually my whole stack with just TP'. Whereas if I c/r the flop then I think he will still call with Ax cos it's more likely I'm on a draw and he can be just hoping I slow down
Posted by Lambert180

Well, we're not going to check-raise flop and then just give up our bluff, are we? We're making that plan to check-raise here and barrel off, not just thinking of the check-raise in isolation. So that's a good argument for check-raising because we get more money in the pot and still force him to fold on later streets.

By the way, as you ask; I would make my check-raise a little bigger on the turn. It's tough to work out in fifteen seconds, of course, but if we can make the pot ever-so-slightly smaller than the size of the effective stack, that's what we should want to do, I think.

Although we do lose more when he 3-bets the turn... that's not something we love.

rancid · October 2013

Paul, we can play this hand in a vacuum, and yes readless v random we don't have to worry about any nonsense about being balanced.

Basically it's a semi bluff, and how does this work - they gotta fold a % of the time or we still get it with a decent amount of equity to make the play +EV given the % they fold

so your repping a set/2 pr becuae your line is super stroung - I agree you do look stroung but can villian fold enough of the time - without reads your still bobbing for apples

Lambert180 · October 2013

In Response to Re: 20NL Mastercash - C/R Turn w/ GS + FD:

I'd also agree that we can take some basic reads on villain's play that he's unlikely to be delighted with his hand. Yes, he might just be sizing his bets poorly with a set of Aces, but most of the time this line is going to be exactly what it looks like: Relative weakness.
Posted by BorinLoner

Right, gonna post results now (and a potential 2nd question) seen as pretty much every regular clinic poster has given their thoughts...

Give Mr Loner a badge for his sick soul read

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Diminuendo	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£71.75
rancid	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£41.43
	Your hole cards	10 9
Chrissy_C	Fold
middys	Fold
Lambert180	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£52.09
X	Raise		£1.60	£2.50	£37.41
Diminuendo	Fold
rancid	Fold
Lambert180	Call		£1.00	£3.50	£51.09
Flop
		6 A J
Lambert180	Check
X	Bet		£1.75	£5.25	£35.66
Lambert180	Call		£1.75	£7.00	£49.34
Turn
		7
Lambert180	Check
X	Bet		£3.50	£10.50	£32.16
Lambert180	Raise		£9.10	£19.60	£40.24
X	Raise		£14.00	£33.60	£18.16
Lambert180	Call		£8.40	£42.00	£31.84
River
		2
Lambert180	All-in		£31.84	£73.84	£0.00
X	All-in		£18.16	£92.00	£0.00
Lambert180	Unmatched bet		£13.68	£78.32	£13.68
Lambert180	Show	10 9
X	Show	A A
Lambert180	Win	Flush to the Jack	£76.52		£90.20

So I got kinda lucky here (not talking about the river) but not in the traditional sense. He ended up 3betting me which was the one thing I was worried about when check/raising, but luckily he made it such a god awful size that I can just never fold imo. At this stage it's pretty obvious he never has a better FD or anything, it's virtually 100% sets and I'm confident I'm getting paid off on 100% of my clean outs (eights and non-board pairing spades).

I'm still getting the right price for this, right? If we assume we're calling £8.40 to win £51.76 cos I just don't think he's ever folding.

BorinLoner · October 2013

We're getting 4:1 on the call just on our pot odds. We can't fold to the 3-bet even if we don't get another penny on the river, assuming we're right and he only ever has sets. (Which seems a reasonable assumption).

I only went to scouts for about two weeks as a kid before deciding it was terrible and refusing my parents' demands to go back. I never got a badge... until now. Woop, woop!

What would a "Soul read" badge look like, anyway?

hhyftrftdr · October 2013

I have to ask BL, why do I hardly ever see you at the tables? Your knowledge of the game and all its aspects is pretty damn good! Sometimes when I read your posts I feel like such a novice

Sorry to derail Paul

rancid · October 2013

8.40 to win 42 isn't it ?

so u want 20%

u have 25% equity

o sry if u say 100% sets you have to remove 7s so.......................your still ok to call

gazza127 · October 2013

Hey I said AA first!

gazza127 · October 2013

In Response to Re: 20NL Mastercash - C/R Turn w/ GS + FD:

Also, if you think their sizing pre means weakness... as in they arent clued up on how much to bet, then how do you know that the half pot bet sizing on the flop and turn isnt actually their way of playing a massive hand. Maybe this is a villain who doesnt know how to extract max value and he is afraid of losing his customer if he flopped top set for example. You say you dont have any reads. You are OOP and have no idea what villain is holding. You dont know if villain is capable of folding top pair if you miss and barrel again. IMO you've just turned your hand with decent equity onto the turn into a massive bluff, praying oppo folds (but have no idea if he's capable of doing so) if you miss the river, and just getting quite lucky if you hit with just the one card to come.
Posted by gazza127

See!

BorinLoner · October 2013

I'm sure the scouts have more than one soul read badge in their store rooms, Gazza. No problem.

Harry, if you want to see me at the tables you can find me on NL4 every couple of weeks. I'm not really rolled to play higher than that and don't have the 'love' of the game to spin it up. Playing the game is actually quite dull most of the time. I think the fact that I'm not very good at the whole silly 'winning' side of the game is largely irrelevant to the fact I don't play very often.

You can just wait until Sarah_C or MissFowler are at the tables. You'll almost certainly see me trying to bother them. lol

gazza127 · October 2013

Either way Lambert this just shows the exact reason why i didnt like the turn raise. Opponent could have easily shoved in and you have to fold. As it happened he got you to commit more of your stack to the pot when you were behind, but i do feel we got lucky to see the ideal card come on the river.

hhyftrftdr · October 2013

In Response to Re: 20NL Mastercash - C/R Turn w/ GS + FD:

I'm sure the scouts have more than one soul read badge in their store rooms, Gazza. No problem. Harry, if you want to see me at the tables you can find me on NL4 every couple of weeks. I'm not really rolled to play higher than that and don't have the 'love' of the game to spin it up. Playing the game is actually quite dull most of the time. I think the fact that I'm not very good at the whole silly 'winning' side of the game is largely irrelevant to the fact I don't play very often. You can just wait until Sarah_C or MissFowler are at the tables. You'll almost certainly see me trying to bother them. lol
Posted by BorinLoner

So you're just a shameless bum hunter then? Though, to be fair, that isn't a bad couple of bums to hunt

Lambert180 · October 2013

That's pretty results orientated thinking though Gazza. You're right that we don't know what their bet sizing means, but that doesn't mean we should just by default think it must be the nuts until we get notes. It could be AA, but it could equally be A9o or a ton of other hands. Would you have changed your mind and said you liked it if he'd bet/folded the turn? or he'd bet/called and then folded the river?

Well he got me to commit more of my stack in a +EV spot for me. Everytime I call his turn 3bet I make money and he loses money, doesn't matter that I'm behind. Because he'd 3bet the turn, it obv put a stop to any bluffing on the river, so he's not getting another penny out of me unless I hit an eight or non-pairing spade so he's either getting a tiny bit more out of me on the turn or getting stacked.

gazza127 · October 2013

In Response to Re: 20NL Mastercash - C/R Turn w/ GS + FD:

That's pretty results orientated thinking though Gazza. You're right that we don't know what their bet sizing means, but that doesn't mean we should just by default think it must be the nuts until we get notes. It could be AA, but it could equally be A9o or a ton of other hands. Would you have changed your mind and said you liked it if he'd bet/folded the turn? or he'd bet/called and then folded the river? Well he got me to commit more of my stack in a +EV spot for me. Everytime I call his turn 3bet I make money and he loses money, doesn't matter that I'm behind. Because he'd 3bet the turn, it obv put a stop to any bluffing on the river, so he's not getting another penny out of me unless I hit an eight or non-pairing spade so he's either getting a tiny bit more out of me on the turn or getting stacked.
Posted by Lambert180

Well no im not changing my mind if he bet/folds turn. I didnt know the result before I posted before and i would have stuck by it no matter the outcome... although the outcome has just backed up the danger in check/raising here. If he reraises a bit more or shoves then you've just set fire to your money with a hand which had decent equity.

rancid · October 2013

a lot of results orientated thinking, a couple of important questions for you Paul to mull over

1. If villian 3 bet shoves, can you call

2. What % of the time do you need villian to fold

20NL Mastercash - C/R Turn w/ GS + FD

Comments