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Did I make mistakes here?

edited October 2013 in The Poker Clinic
Okay, the outcome of this hand surprised me so just want to know what you guys think of my play really.

I raised pre-flop to try get it heads up for the flop (atruered seemed to be a very tight player so I figured he would fold to any bet, unless he actually had something). I know my raise size maybe could have been bigger here.

Standard play on the turn I think after hitting my ace, 1/2 pot size bet was called.

The 9 on the river paired the board, which could have given him a set. For some reason I was putting him on a low pocket pair though, so decided to shove. Probably a bit hasty - would be interested to know what sort of cards you guys would put him on at this point (before he called my shove).
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
peter27 Small blind   50.00 50.00 940.00
atruered Big blind   100.00 150.00 810.00
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • K
     
degsy1 Fold        
spears04 Fold        
kellymj Fold        
IFi Call   100.00 250.00 785.00
peter27 Raise   150.00 400.00 790.00
atruered Fold        
IFi Call   100.00 500.00 685.00
Flop
   
  • A
  • 9
  • Q
     
peter27 Bet   250.00 750.00 540.00
IFi Call   250.00 1000.00 435.00
Turn
   
  • 9
     
peter27 All-in   540.00 1540.00 0.00
IFi All-in   435.00 1975.00 0.00
peter27 Unmatched bet   105.00 1870.00 105.00
peter27 Show
  • A
  • K
     
IFi Show
  • Q
  • A
     
River
   
  • 2
     
IFi Win Two Pairs, Aces and Queens 1870.00   1870.00
«13

Comments

  • edited October 2013
    Id just be open jamming here.

    Happy to see a call.... happy to see them fold.

    As played theres nothing you could do to get away from it, but yeah I open jam.
  • edited October 2013
    Yes Jam pre all day long you have 9 bigs no question here the only play. The outcome would be the same just a cooler but thats poker.
  • edited October 2013
    Raise to 450 as we're going to get it all in on the flop regardless what the flop comes. This way we induce villain To shove over the top pre or he's committed to call on the flop as he's put just over 50% of his stack in. If we shove pre it could sometimes make villain fold which we do not want to happen.
  • edited October 2013
    re raising anything other than all in has to be a mistake imo! how do you feel when we raise pre flop here, he flat calls, flop comes J 9 7 and he goes all in?

    Just shove preflop!

    Any stack below 10 big blinds is just shove or fold preflop.
  • edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?:
    re raising anything other than all in has to be a mistake imo! how do you feel when we raise pre flop here, he flat calls, flop comes J 9 7 and he goes all in? Just shove preflop! Any stack below 10 big blinds is just shove or fold preflop.
    Posted by jdsallstar
    We're first to act on the flop. Whatever the flop comes, villian will not be folding as he will have committed over 50% of his stack and pot will be something like 1300 inc our 350 all in bet so he'll be getting 4/1 on his money so he only ever needs 20% equity to call. Two live cards will give him 25% Equity providing you've also mised the flop or he has 2 overs.  We are shoving the flop 100% of the time regardless what comes.

  • edited October 2013
    Never raise anything less than all in.
  • edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?:
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : We're first to act on the flop. Whatever the flop comes, villian will not be folding as he will have committed over 50% of his stack and pot will be something like 1300 inc our 350 all in bet so he'll be getting 4/1 on his money.  We are shoving the flop 100% of the time regardless what comes.
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    Sorry looked at it quick and thought opponent was first to act didn't realise he was sb!

    still don't like the play though because we miss the flop 2 out of 3 times and I don't particularly want to shove with ace high or give him the chance to catch something. Prefer to get it all in pre take the 25% increase in our stack (if he folds) or see him call and be the favourite a lot of the time (or flip at worst).
  • edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?:
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : Sorry looked at it quick and thought opponent was first to act didn't realise he was sb! still don't like the play though because we miss the flop 2 out of 3 times and I don't particularly want to shove with ace high or give him the chance to catch something. Prefer to get it all in pre take the 25% increase in our stack (if he folds) or see him call and be the favourite a lot of the time (or flip at worst).
    Posted by jdsallstar
    So let's say you're him and holding one of KJ, KQ, JT, QJ, QT, A8s
     
    and flop comes 9 5 2 or A 3 T or 7 Q 6 or 8 5 6

    Would you ever be folding any of these hands on any of these boards with 350 chips and the pot is 1.3k?

    FWIW we're trying to price the btn in, inducing him to shove over us pf and if he flats, he's committed on the flop regardless.
  • edited October 2013
    We don't need to try and price the BTN in. If he's limp/folding from 10xBB or limp/anything then he clearly doesn't have a clue what he's doing, so he likely doesn't care/know about price and is probably just looking at his own cards. 

    I.E. If he's the type to limp/call JT, then he's probbably the type to fold a missed flop. Just get him to commit the lot now as an underdog. If by shoving we can make him fold 22/33/44 maybe then hey that's even better.
  • edited October 2013
    fold pre -
     theres a limper in the pot who range has to be masssssive so there not folding so we have about 6more orbits - id rather jus get blinded away and hope to cash a bit $$$    :)
  • edited October 2013
    all in here anything else is a mistake 

    no point min raising u might miss the flop and have to fold get them in 
  • edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?:
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : So let's say you're him and holding one of KJ, KQ, JT, QJ, QT, A8s   and flop comes 9 5 2 or A 3 T or 7 Q 6 or 8 5 6 Would you ever be folding any of these hands on any of these boards with 350 chips and the pot is 1.3k? FWIW we're trying to price the btn in, inducing him to shove over us pf and if he flats, he's committed on the flop regardless.
    Posted by DoubleAAA

    Flop three with the queen is a disaster for us for half the range you mention! You also fail to mention pp's which will like at least two of those flops! 

    Pre we're 60/40 70/30 or 50/50 against random hands! If we're going to showdown regardless do we want them to have a chance to peel and then fold if they miss and call our shove if they hit? It's a 30p dym so a lot of players at this level will not know they're priced in to call! We need to win 60% to break even at these low dyms so we want to avoid showdowns like the plague as well because it just won't be profitable long term

  • edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?:
    Raise to 450 as we're going to get it all in on the flop regardless what the flop comes. This way we induce villain To shove over the top pre or he's committed to call on the flop as he's put just over 50% of his stack in. If we shove pre it could sometimes make villain fold which we do not want to happen.
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    This is bad. Really bad. Raising half our stack is basically saying ''I have a monster'', whereas shoving keeps our range as wide as possible, whilst holding a very strong hand. Plus if we raise half our stack, there is no way we can induce villain to do anything as they now have zero fold equity. 

    Peter, this is an easy jamming spot. Anything else is wrong in my opinion. This hand really should've played out differently (IE button shoves and we snap off, result still same of course). When we are as short stacked as we are, we want to be the first to move all in, regardless of our holding; we either win the hand there and then or we take a flop turn and river and whatever happens, happens.
  • edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?:
    Raise to 450 as we're going to get it all in on the flop regardless what the flop comes. This way we induce villain To shove over the top pre or he's committed to call on the flop as he's put just over 50% of his stack in. If we shove pre it could sometimes make villain fold which we do not want to happen.
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    you come out with some rubbish, raising for half his stack looks even stronger than jamming. we dont play to induce with stacks like this size, they just play there selves.
  • edited October 2013
    This was something I saw on a training video on Deuces-cracked and something which I myself utilize.  Like you say it looks like a monster, but that's only to the person who knows what he's doing (and the limper does not) and therefore when up against  a person who knows what he's doing you can also make this move with a marginal hand and gain folds as like you so rightly said, it looks super strong although I would incresae the 450 to something like 550ish.

    Shoving is obviously fine.

  • edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?:
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : Flop three with the queen is a disaster for us for half the range you mention! You also fail to mention pp's which will like at least two of those flops!  Pre we're 60/40 70/30 or 50/50 against random hands! If we're going to showdown regardless do we want them to have a chance to peel and then fold if they miss and call our shove if they hit? It's a 30p dym so a lot of players at this level will not know they're priced in to call! We need to win 60% to break even at these low dyms so we want to avoid showdowns like the plague as well because it just won't be profitable long term
    Posted by jdsallstar
    Didn't know it was a 30p DYM. In that case just shove. Didn't mention PPs as they would be jamming over the top of us pre anyway.
  • edited October 2013
    they should be immediatley fired if that was on a training site.. and they played it exactly as your describing we should...!! 
    i doubt it tho- 
  • edited October 2013
    Yeah plz link me to a training vid where an actual good player suggests any other option than shoving when effective stack is <9xBB
  • edited October 2013
    ive watched all deuces cracked wideos on mtts and there all good informative videos, never in anyone of them do they suggest you 3 bet to induce with a 10bb stack, 3 betting to induce is a good play and its used alot by the guys who make the vids but its a play they use when there 20 - 30bbs deep and its just totally standard poker, nothing clever about it. 
  • edited October 2013
    all in looks weaker then betting 500 out of 900 lol
  • edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?:
    ive watched all deuces cracked wideos on mtts and there all good informative videos, never in anyone of them do they suggest you 3 bet to induce with a 10bb stack, 3 betting to induce is a good play and its used alot by the guys who make the vids but its a play they use when there 20 - 30bbs deep and its just totally standard poker, nothing clever about it. 
    Posted by THEROCK573
    The video was by TMoney209 and it was related to sngs when having 10bbs or less and you want to gain folds with your marginal hands as it looks super strong.  Of course this will only work against a player who knows what they're doing, so if it's against a random then they're more likely to flat to see a flop without realising they're priced in to calling on the flop as well.

    Back to the hand in question, it would not be a 3bet as the guy had limped, so it would be a raise vs a limp, and to be quite honest, with him limping his hand is weak and remember he's missing that flop 67% of the time so I don't actually mind that he calls us for us to then donk jam the flop.

    As this was a DYM, then the emphasis is on survival so I would just shove.
  • edited October 2013
    A lot of you said shove all-in pre-flop. I did consider this but (if I remember rightly) I had the second biggest stack with the top three getting paid. I didn't want to go all-in incase I lost the pot and therefore lost most of my chips. Would then probably end up not cashing in that situation. Everyone who had to act after me had a smaller chipstack so I felt the raise was fine, why be super aggressive and risk not cashing when I'm comfortable on chips in comparison to others? Don't forget the aim in a DYM is not to win, but come in the top three.

    Having said that, if one of them went all-in pre-flop, then I would have called. As played, I shoved when I hit the flop.
  • edited October 2013
    Isnt it 2k starting stacks?

    So 12k in chips, how can you be in the top 3 with that stack?

    Even if it's 1k starting stack (so 6k in play), you still have less than starting stack, how can you be one of the safe stacks?
  • edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?:
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : The video was by TMoney209 and it was related to sngs when having 10bbs or less and you want to gain folds with your marginal hands as it looks super strong.  Of course this will only work against a player who knows what they're doing, so if it's against a random then they're more likely to flat to see a flop without realising they're priced in to calling on the flop as well. Back to the hand in question, it would not be a 3bet as the guy had limped, so it would be a raise vs a limp, and to be quite honest, with him limping his hand is weak and remember he's missing that flop 67% of the time so I don't actually mind that he calls us for us to then donk jam the flop. As this was a DYM, then the emphasis is on survival so I would just shove.
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    ok my bad its not a 3 bet i just auto presumed there was a raise without really looking. doesnt change the fact though thats its still a simple all in shove regardless of whether its a dym or an mtt. things dont need to be made so complicated with stacks like this. you are a massively trying to be to technical in playing a simple shove stack.
  • edited October 2013

    This is an example what happened early this evening by not shoving with a 10bb stack against a player who does not recognise that this screams of strength and will call.  Although he ended up hitting a nice flop he will have been priced in regardless on the flop. 

    So you can carry out this play against with a marginal hand against a good player.  As a couple of you have already stated, this action makes our hand look super-strong. 
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    mud66 Small blind   50.00 50.00 2260.00
    DoubleAAA Big blind   100.00 150.00 945.00
      Your hole cards
    • A
    • A
         
    PinkFairy9 Fold        
    x Call   100.00 250.00 3020.00
    Smilodon Fold        
    butcther1 Fold        
    mud66 Call   50.00 300.00 2210.00
    DoubleAAA Raise   400.00 700.00 545.00
    x Call   400.00 1100.00 2620.00
    mud66 Fold        
    Flop
       
    • 10
    • 7
    • 9
         
    DoubleAAA Bet   300.00 1400.00 245.00
    x Raise   600.00 2000.00 2020.00
    DoubleAAA All-in   245.00 2245.00 0.00
    x Unmatched bet   55.00 2190.00 2075.00
    DoubleAAA Show
    • A
    • A
         
    x Show
    • 3
    • K
         
  • edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?:
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : The video was by TMoney209 and it was related to sngs when having 10bbs or less and you want to gain folds with your marginal hands as it looks super strong.  Of course this will only work against a player who knows what they're doing, so if it's against a random then they're more likely to flat to see a flop without realising they're priced in to calling on the flop as well. Back to the hand in question, it would not be a 3bet as the guy had limped, so it would be a raise vs a limp, and to be quite honest, with him limping his hand is weak and remember he's missing that flop 67% of the time so I don't actually mind that he calls us for us to then donk jam the flop. As this was a DYM, then the emphasis is on survival so I would just shove.
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    I'm confused - r u wanting a fold or a call now when you make this move? you're trying to induce an all in from randomers but folds against decent players?

    Plus he had aq he wasn't that weak he just played it badly.
  • edited October 2013
    the last hand is surely an example of why we don't want to do this?!

    We started the hand as the 80% fav and on the flop we're now 66% - we've let them catch up considerably. With the 300 bet on the flop they now have to call 300 to win 1400.

    and your raise pre does make your hand super strong but then again it IS super strong.

    Against decent players you wont get this chance very often because decent players would not limp into the pot and so with your stack you wouldn't scare anyone- they'dhave to call regardless. so the shove achieves the same thing!
  • edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?:
    the last hand is surely an example of why we don't want to do this?! We started the hand as the 80% fav and on the flop we're now 66% - we've let them catch up considerably. With the 300 bet on the flop they now have to call 300 to win 1400. and your raise pre does make your hand super strong but then again it IS super strong. Against decent players you wont get this chance very often because decent players would not limp into the pot and so with your stack you wouldn't scare anyone- they'dhave to call regardless. so the shove achieves the same thing!
    Posted by jdsallstar

    If I had shoved this hand pre, then this guy would not have called and I would have gained 300 chips, however because he is a poor player I made it so that he calls and without realising he is priced in.  When you want a call you do it with a strong hand vs a poor player.  When wanting a fold you can do it with a marginal hand vs a good player.

    Imagine, I do this with let's say 9Ts and you're holding KTs, would you flat, shove or fold?
  • edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?:
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : If I had shoved this hand pre, then this guy would not have called and I would have gained 300 chips, however because he is a poor player I made it so that he calls and without realising he is priced in.  When you want a call you do it with a strong hand vs a poor player.  When wanting a fold you can do it with a marginal hand vs a good player.
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    but in this hand good players are not folding. say in this example the decent player had raised to 300 you then limit raise to 600 (leaving you 350 back) - they're snapping you off or more likely just raising to put you all in. so your all in with a marginal holding - brilliant!




  • edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?:
    In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : If I had shoved this hand pre, then this guy would not have called and I would have gained 300 chips, however because he is a poor player I made it so that he calls and without realising he is priced in.  When you want a call you do it with a strong hand vs a poor player.  When wanting a fold you can do it with a marginal hand vs a good player. Imagine, I do this with let's say 9Ts and you're holding KTs, would you flat, shove or fold?
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    i'm not limping k10 and I have to call any raise pre because you have so little back.
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