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STT Challenge and diary DYMs v 6max (COMPLETED)
Only one way to find out - play them both!
In terms of style I prefer Six-max's where the reward is higher for placing 1st.
However the volume is with DYMs and instinctively have to expect that the field would be weaker?
Six-max
1. Lower rake
2. If you have an edge the skewed prize for 1st is more attractive
DYM
1. Lower variance
2. Higher volume
edit: This started out as a 1 week challenge but I will keep going until I hit 100 of each. I have also pledged 10% of winnings to Larson and Slipwaters charity event so hoping to run well and get some feedback/discussion on strategy along the way.
Aim is to play 100 of each while it's double points and measure how long it takes to get thru 100 games and what the returns are. I know the results won't be statistically significant but it will hopefully be an interesting experiment.
Think I'll go for £1 buy-in games to keep the maths simple and affordable if it all goes pear-shaped.
Obviously probably not a good idea to play both types at the same time and to even it out I'll switch types at different times of day so as not to skew results based on the softest times.
I will mutli-table if the volume is there, but probably only 4-max at once.
I'll try and keep a diary and discuss any key hands over the week.
I expect my ROI to be higher on six-max - but suspect profit/hour will be higher for DYMs (hopefully positive for both measures and both types).
Depending on results I aim to set myself a challenge based on the most profitable format for me.
In terms of style I prefer Six-max's where the reward is higher for placing 1st.
However the volume is with DYMs and instinctively have to expect that the field would be weaker?
Six-max
1. Lower rake
2. If you have an edge the skewed prize for 1st is more attractive
DYM
1. Lower variance
2. Higher volume
edit: This started out as a 1 week challenge but I will keep going until I hit 100 of each. I have also pledged 10% of winnings to Larson and Slipwaters charity event so hoping to run well and get some feedback/discussion on strategy along the way.
Aim is to play 100 of each while it's double points and measure how long it takes to get thru 100 games and what the returns are. I know the results won't be statistically significant but it will hopefully be an interesting experiment.
Think I'll go for £1 buy-in games to keep the maths simple and affordable if it all goes pear-shaped.
Obviously probably not a good idea to play both types at the same time and to even it out I'll switch types at different times of day so as not to skew results based on the softest times.
I will mutli-table if the volume is there, but probably only 4-max at once.
I'll try and keep a diary and discuss any key hands over the week.
I expect my ROI to be higher on six-max - but suspect profit/hour will be higher for DYMs (hopefully positive for both measures and both types).
Depending on results I aim to set myself a challenge based on the most profitable format for me.
Comments
Can have different levels - whatever you are comfortable at / have the roll for - more interested in seeing how the stats work between the two games. Measures for the overall challenge would have to be ROI not £profit.
PPS - Any predictions - which really is better?
Pretty hard really to put in volume I think on the old software. It's just really not nice to use.
I think that when the new Software hits the STT's & DYM's, liquidity there will increase enormously. Hope so, anyway.
Most I can manage at present is 4 at a time, but I'm a bit old, & imagine the youngsters can manage plenty more.
Since OP I dabbled in some micro stakes DYM & 6 max to warm up and the dyms weren't going great but the 6 max were.
First Session complete - loaded a £1.15 and £1.10 6 max and waited to see which filled up first - it was the 6 max. so d-regd the DYM and regd for more 6 max (I only intend to play the same format in each session I play)
Ended up playing 3 - 6max 2 in parallel
My 6max record on the challenge is now P 3 1st x2 2nd x1
Profit £6.60 ROI %200 £/hr 4.71
All downhill from those stats obviously.
1st table 2nd hand I'm in the cut-off with QQ, limp, limp to me, I raise x5 to 150 - 4 callers sigh as D,BB and 2 limpers all call.
Nice flop 9c8c3h
BB bets half his stack
limpers fold to me.
I shove D folds BB calls and shows Jc9s, I hold for a nice double up.
Make a 2nd nut flush on river to pick up a few chips - think I missed some value on that one.
Then I pick up AhQd on BB
D and SB call - I raise probably too light only to 150 (3xbb)
both call
Flop 7h3hQs
I bet 450
One caller
Turn = Kh to give me nut flush draw but make the Q vulnerable
I bet half pot and take it down - now in a very tidy chip lead and so it stayed until 3 handed.
Dealer limps - I shove from SB with 88, 2 callers
They show 33 and A4s and I win the first 6max of the challenge w/o needing to test my HU skills.
Basically ran well throughout - nothing special - earlier hands show the perils of mass limpers in a STT, luckily I connected well both times. Doesn't always happen that way.
2nd table
Bit of a roller-coaster. Running pretty hand dead early, accumulate a few chips, then this hand...
On BB with K2
UTG and SB limp I check
Flop 345 rainbow
SB and I check UTG bets half pot - SB folds I call
Turn K
I bet half pot - UTG calls and is now pretty short only 385 behind
River 7
I check UTG shoves and I call pretty sure normally behind but 385 to win 1750 tempts me - UTG shows AK and I have taken a big hit.
Double up with 33 9bb shove
Another hit with 66 that got action and had to lay down
Took out a short stack with A9 shove v A5
Get HU with TT holding up v 88
3:1 down in chips - think I'm about to get KK in pre but villain folds to a 3bet
Need to take a chance so reraise all-in later with J8s dominated by AJ and I'm out for 2nd.
Third table just get lucky early doors to build a big stack
On BB with KK.
S/stack UTG shoves with just under 4 bigs
+1 calls
SB raises
I shove all-in and get 2 callers - didn't really want 3 opponents all-in
However villains show QQ 35 and AT (believe it or not the SB raiser had the 35!)
I hold up and cruise in.
Quite a lengthy HU battle but always had a comfortable lead.
I'll hopefully try some DYM action next to get some comparative stats.
Definitely more tables in play - very rusty on Multi-Tabling though. Had x3 running in parallel in no time so eased off and didn't reg for any more. Played those out cashed in 2 - out in 1.
In truth v lucky - should have been 1-2 or even 0-3
Table 1 - got ahead early - should have taken a hit from a shorter stack when blind v blind I called raise with KJ then flop came Jxx I bet and called the shove. Villain had hit a low set and I rivered a flush. Such a big chip lead after that coasted in 1st.
Table 2 - Not much happening 1 player out, I flop low trips villain stays with me then calls my turn shove with 2 pair - hits flush on river to bust me (evens things out with Table 1)
Table 3 - Uber lucky - misclicks can work for you sometimes called with Q4 when a shorty shoved on my BB. I was dominated but hit the 4! Gets to 4 handed and a long bubble - I'm card dead shoved with KH got through but blinds climbing and I'm getting to the point when I might have to start shoving air. Then the other players find some action hands and I limp home 3rd.
While I think the £/hr opportunities should be there with greater volume - actually found the standard harder to exploit on the DYM but this is early days. Also as tables generally tight, they take a while to complete.
Summary results so far...
Bit disappointed with my HU record but early days. Seem to have got it in good in most exits - or had to shove short.
Had one epic HU game played up from short until making a bad call on a rivered flush. Fought back again to get coolered JJ v AA pre. Villain picked up AA next hand but I managed to crack them with trip 6's only to lose out shortly after.
Overall figures
[If anyone who is able to post HH would care to let me know how they select the cards on a cut and paste I would like to know - I either seem to get the suits but HH appears in a jumbled mess - or a readable HH but without suits. What browser do you use? Which method do you use to get to the HH? Where do you start and finish the select from? I read the post on how to post hand histories and think I'm following steps there without any joy.]
1) The good (or was it?) The result was but was it a good call? I received some chat comment not happy with the call, I just had villain pegged as someone who could be aggro without the goods and felt a bigger hand would have played it harder pre and cuter post.
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
Seems using IE and using Browser to access HH and ignoring fact the preview looks wrong - produce a proper HH.
another 9 DYMs tonight P9 W6 L3
1st table illustrated the problem with limp callers - when you don't hit the flop. A few solid open raises / raise over limpers called for multi-way pots and missed flops = dwindling stack early doors.
Found going easier once other tables had spun up and was multi-tabling 3-4 tables. Just played uber tight and in most cases easily made money without having to do much. Not very interesting to play - rate of play increased which helps with the £/hr calcs.
Stats...
Really didn't get the volume in I had hoped, mainly due to the ongoing saga of hospital visiting. Unfortunately after being discharged my wife was only home for a few days before being admitted to our local hospital and then transferred back to Leeds.
Poker taking a bit of a back seat - but I am determined to finish this challenge. Have also donated 10% of my profit to Larson and Slipwaters charity challenge so I'd better get my finger out and raise my ROI.
Results:
Overall cash rates are similar (11/16 v 10/15) and of course the added payout for 1st in a 6max means ROI much greater in that format.
Fairly happy with the 6max results although I would like to be winning in the HU stats and I'm currently 4/6 down.
Feel I should tighten up even more on DYMs getting involved too much in mid stages, e.g. tonight got it in good only for villain to call and hit flush draw which I had way overcharged them for and they chased with an 8x. On a six max the chance to double up is always worth taking if odds are good, however not sure the same can be said in DYMs where maybe I should be focussing on survival more and not risking being knocked out.
Trouble I am finding with DYMs is I get bored - especially if not MT. When I'm bored at a table I'm likely to get busy when I shouldn't or make bad calls to get action.
Pretty card dead and missing flops w/o good c-bet opportunities to dwindle down to 1100 chips. Shoved from DB in mid stages and ran into KK but got lucky.
Raised with 55 into short stack - all-in with KQ which hit. I'm then short and went all-in over same player who had limped from SB when I had K6. Showed KQ again but I got lucky.
Locked in the cash with TT beating a short stack who called from BB with KJ. Two remaining shorties got all-in shortly after.
So only cashed due to a couple of huge dollops of luck.
I'll get through this challenge though as I have committed to it.
Wondering whether I should be playing turbo dyms and speed 6 max to get thru the volume quicker but if stats are to mean anything I guess I should stick with full structure.
Maybe next challenge will be 6max reg v 6max speed - probably at £2 assuming B/R justifies it.
My overall aim is to build up through the levels and treat my wife to a holiday next year and I want to find the most profitable route to that. This year was the first since we met that we haven't had a holiday and given her health problems, one next year is a must.
I'll be back on the tables this evening when I will hopefully find some more volume.
Had my first losing day of the challenge yesterday - not major losses but a setback.
Yesterday only had 3 cashes / 7 games and no 1sts in 6max.
Bit of a recovery today - only played 3, 1 DYM and 2 6max with 2 1sts and a 2nd (2nd was in a 6max)
Exactly 1/5 of the way through the challenge...
Busted 1st hand utg in a dym with TT raised to x4BB 2 callers. Flop 976 and which encouraged to me keep going. 2 further low cards, unfortunaltey 1 was a 5 and opponent had 88. Really should not have made the final call.
Recovered for a small profit on the day with a six max 1st and 2nd - The 2nd was a long heads up fought up from 2.8k to 6.2 start to get close then race to a 7.5/1.5 lead when flopped a str8. Only to go all in with A6 v A7 instead of a split I hit 6 then villain hits river 7. Next hand call all-in from 66 with AJ, 66 holds and I am pretty much back to where I started. Ended up making a loose call with KQ v AQ pf to get busted.
Overall I am actually have a higher cash % in 6 max than DYMs! Not sure if that is just variance or just better suited to 6max.
Summary:
I've been playing both DYM's and Six-Max games recently, and I've found Six-Max games much easier to cash in which doesn't really make any sense haha.
Will be following with interest :-)
Nice results especially with the 6 handed STT's!
Good luck
I am surprised at how much better the returns have been on 6max - I am more confident playing them which helps - but doesn't really explain the difference in performance at the same buy-in. I don't think the games are softer as such.
Maybe its the longer structure. Slightly shallower blind increases and 7 min blinds v 5 min blinds in 6max v DYM. I do find in the DYM you get less play - sometimes if you sit out and let others fight it out you can easily get to 4 seated but as the short stack with blinds going up and few opportunities for post-flop play. Can then end up taking 55/45 60/40 punts to double up which is not going to create a great ROI in the long run.
Played 7 STTs today only 2 6max W1 L1 and 5 dym W4 L1 so the dym stats picking back up and cash % marginally ahead of the 6max.
Had a couple of spots were I got lucky 99 v QQ made quads but then 99 is the nuts and Raised ott a limper when down to 9 bigs with A7s and made a flush v AQ. Also had some bad luck to get busted out of 1st dym AK in v shortie with A7 then AJ v KJ.
Consciously trying to tighten up more in the dyms early-mid to improve the cash rate and worked on a small sample.
7 STts tonight
DYMs P 3 cashed in 2
6max P4 1stx1 2ndx1 and 2 bust-outs
Overall stats
Then entered a £1 PLO MTT - Managed to get 2nd - Thanks to Tikay and other forum regs for some tips as I managed to hold myself back and only get busy early-mid with made hands and great draws. Nice little profit of £6.40 to round off the evening.
Had a bit of a wobble today.
Lost 2 6max in a row - nothing unusual in that but lost from good positions, especially one with />£5k chips 3 handed.
Was beating up the table then ran into KK with having flopped top pair on a T high flop that and very next hand I made a tilty shove with K8s and ran into same player with AA to be very short and busted a couple of hands after.
Starting playing very poorly after that - serious self doubt but took a short break and came back to end up with a profit on the day. DYMs were my main saviour today with 4/5 wins although managed a 1st and 2 2nds on 6max too.
Overall cashing 69.4% of dyms whereas 6max cash rate has dipped to 63.6%.
Will have to check back through the 6max hands and see what I can pick up from my play.
Today is another day though :-(
Will post results and a couple of hands later.
Nowhere to hide when you commit to a diary!
Bad evening on the 6max tables
DYMs fine 3/4 cashes
6max though p5 0x1st 1x2nd 4xlosses
1st losses were run bad - from chip lead 3 handed 99 ran into KK from the short stack, then QQ busted by 88 to get myself short and 22 beaten by 75. 2nd exit a bit more marginal - overpair called by straight and flush draw which hit.
Couple of tilty games followed - unnecessary call to a shove with flush draw and inside straight draw.
Then overplayed AQ fairly early on with nut flush and straight draw to lose half of stack - could have got away a lot lighter - then busted going for a double up with 33 called and nut flusted by A8.
Final game started well - but could have gone bad...
Hand History #704453951 (22:33 28/10/2013)
Got to HU slightly up.
Thought I'd won it with this hand until the final showdown (at least I could laugh about this one) and eventually bust with TP to 2 pair.
Hand History #704474486 (23:17 28/10/2013)
Confidence taken a knock back on 6max - taking some silly risks when don't need to and getting too timid and scared of losing in other spots.
Hopefully back in tonight - might take a punt at the mini deepstack if the mood is good. I can afford it as a one-off and it will be nice to get involved in the UKOPS. Only tried to enter via a couple of FRs so far.
No STTs last night - had some work to do but did enter the UKOPS mini - deepstack freezout for £5.50 - plenty of play for my £'s and I find a MTT is manageable for mutli-tasking.
Early doors a series of steady small gains before a long card dead run dwindled down to quarter avg stack a couple of times and found good spots to bet back to just above avg 20BB+ stack.
Just before bubble button open raise with KT x2callers - flop Kxx checked to me - neither player had been aggro or tricky so I decide to check - not much chance of an A hitting on turn - so of course it hits. Then made a couple of terrible calls to min bets both opponents had A's.
Tried a SB raise v BB and cbet but BB shoves on me to leave me short right on the bubble.
Card dead again with minimal fold equity so decide to sit it out for the cash, which was made.
Then had time to rail Anna through to her cash in the M/E - well played!
sneaked in 3 STTs before bed time - wish I hadn't
Overplayed TP in a 6max and got busted in a 6mx (wp Peter27)
Then the following two bubble hands in DYMs
AsKs v KcQc
8sJc3c7cAc
AA v A3
85642
sigh - AK hand particularly annoying - there were 3 similar stacks and a big stack who didn't need to get involved. Pushed me off a raise with 99 by shoving all-in over the top. Then open raised on me so I went all-in with AK and he called.
Suppose I couldn't have got my chips in much better in either hand so should only really worry about the top hand.
Won a 6max - pretty standard to 4 handed then the big stack knocked out other 2 players - so about 4:1 down in chips.
Managed to hit well and play well to get ahead then win with AJ v J8 aipf.
Also played 2 dyms W1 L1
Nice £25 boost for the bankroll.
Enjoyable game with plenty of banter - shame we had 2 sitouts though but I can't complain about the free ladder up to 3rd after Lamberts exit.
Knocked out by Paige - nearly found a fold with an outkicked top pair on a T high board - but couldn't quite manage it. Hoped my preflop raise and post flop reraise all-in would take the pot down but had run into TP/TK and my thin draws didn't get there.
Played a few 6max to get the numbers even with DYMs.
P4 Wx2 2ndx1 3rdx1
Held up when ahead in 2 wins
The 3rd was a little ul shoved with 44 from BB over 2 limpers - called by Q7o which hit
2nd spot lost HU chip lead with pf cooler AJvAQ then went out when all-in on turn with 2 pair Q7 v AQ tptk and A rivered.
Tried my first UKOPS Sat - early good start in a frenzy but soon came unstuck - not exactly much play but better than an all-in I suppose. Might wait until rolled up a bit more and enter a better structured Sat. Only worry is by then all the pros will have qualified and will be grinding those sats for cash.
Thinking I'll aim to get to 50/50 entries and review where I am.
B/R has been climbing - might stick the entries up to £2 for the next 50.
Continuing the steady grind on the DYM tables - bit of a downswing on the 6max - a run of getting it in good on the bubble only to get busted. Broke the rot with a win tonight but wasn't really concentrating and playing my best and went on to lose the next 2. Final game got in good with trips and a gutshot straight draw to get called by two pair that made the higher FH on the turn.
Hasn't started well though - donked off to a nasty piece of work with KQ on a KJx board and blank turn - opponent had KJ.
Then I am pre-flop aggressor with red 9's and flop comes AKQ all hearts. 2 players check to me and I c-bet with 1 caller. Turn = Jh and I have 2nd nuts. Opponent bets pot /half stack. I call with 2nd nuts. River comes a K and opponent all-in - I should have been able to get way from that but didn't and opponent had Th for royal flush. I would really have been kicking myself if they had housed up! I think I should have shipped on the turn tbh - couldn't give opponent credit for the Th with the pot bet - surely wouldn't have wanted to lose a customer on such a scary board - couldn't have known I had 9h.
I'll update the stats every 10 games - hopefully I will have recovered some respectability by then!