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Raise flop? Best line?
You've got to be a little concerned, because you have the lowest possible flush. You've called an all-in (over a fifth of your stack) and there is still someone to act. I guess you put the shover on a high club? I think I would actually be tempted to shove over the top, to possibly get rid of the third guy in the pot, in case he is the one drawing to the higher flush.
Comments
If you flat turn and get raised behind, pass the puke bucket !
I'm raising flop everytime. Our flopped flush is vulnerable to a turn card - the last thing we want to see is another club. Even if the opponent is spewy its hard to see him barrelling a club turn without a better club in his hand - even if he barrels without a club can we call? The second villain also could be drawing - I think we need to be building the pot to play for both villains stacks.
Too many cards kill our action on the turn when we flat so we should be trying to get as much money in now. Nut flush draws come along for the ride, as do sets and weird two pairs. Even top pairs with no clubs might call thinking you are on a draw yourself and the allusive overpair.
I remember playing a hand much like this months ago almost identical, which I stuck on my diary - TommyD was quick to perk up and ask me why I didn't raise the flop. I justified it by saying I knew villain was barrelling any turn, but as it turns out I have since found out that this is not the optimal way to play it. Many times I've missed out on value by not raising the flop and charging for already made hands and draws, and a lot of the time I end up letting the villain get there just by flatting. I ended up stacking yoyo not too long ago by raising a flop like this convincing him I was on a draw - but I built a pot and could play for stacks by the river.
So yeah I raise even with villains stack size - if he jams over I snap call because a lot of the time he has a nut flush draw or a set and not a higher made flush, plus we can charge villain 2 for whatever made/unmade hand he has.
I don't hate raising the flop either, but I think flatting is fine too. When we flat flop, then turn is deffo a flat.
BTW, Larson, you should be worried about the guy behind cos he's the guy that has 200xBB+!! He's the one we'd love to stack.
Ergo Raise />Call
Quite happy on the turn i have the best hand 99% of the time.
The fact a tightish player has called flop, he must have AK AQ with one club, possibly 10s jacks with 1 club.
Re Flop. i like the smooth call, i'm purely doing it because of their stack. They only have about £7 behind. Most of their range they have to fold to a raise.
Re Turn, i really like Dohhhhs idea, smooth calling, if max calls, shoving any blank river.
I just shoved when i knew i was good. Definatly missed out on value from Max, for maybe abnother 7 quid, though i wuld never get his stack unless i coolered him,
Say we flat the turn, and that villian flats behind... the pot will now be £26 and he only has about £15 left for the river. If he's got a hand he'll stack off with then he's getting stacked, if he doesn't then it's useless raising the flop/turn anyway.
Actually, now I've explained that, I like a flat even more lol
I raise flop to circa £4-£4.50. Say Max and marge both come along, then the pot is about £16 by the turn instead of the £7. We can then bet the turn a lot bigger to charge for draws - I mean if he's got a big hand anyway that he'll stack off with what's the harm in raising and committing more money earlier. Say we raise to £4.50 max calls and marge shoves in the rest (after all he is spewy). We can call and max will feel obliged to call behind. Pot is now £27 with max having less than £16 behind. We can get all of this in on the turn for nut flush draws and hands which would have paid us off anyway.
I'm playing for max's stack, not marges and if he has a made hand I want to get value. If he has a draw I want to get value. I definitely raise flop as I see that as the most optimal line to get Maxs stack whether he has a draw or a made hand.
raise flop 100% - get some more money in the middle
if villian has flopped flush then haha - reverse implied odds anyone
would rarther raise flop for a number of reasons
can't think of one good reason to flat
if ya gonna under rep don't puke when someone raises
That's ott tho!
And the guy is vvvvv tight according to the OP. So he only has a value range to raise the turn and there's not a single hand in that range that we can beat or even have any equity against.
So puke/fold the flush. Wud be a fairly easy fold really if folding a flopped flush wasn't so hard!!!!
But we can get him to call worse by clicking call alot
Can't always give a perceived tight person credit - our game is so exploitable by this person if we just fold to any of his raises.
Very few people attempt to exploit others @ these stakes.
Doesn't matter if we're exploitable. (fwiw it wud be pretty sick for him to turn hands into bluffs ott in this spot, to make us fold yet remain ahead of the range of the maniac in front of us)
Don't think anyone on the site is that good, nvm 10nl.
fact that we under rep a flopped flush giving villian license to raise turn with sets/two prs/overprs now a safe turn card has dropped
folding to a turn raise would be really bad
what are the reason's for flatting flop/turn -
flop is like the best street for injecting some monies and extracting from villians on a monotone flop
basically by not raising flop we are basically happy not getting more money in while ahead
akin to not 3 betting AK pre
your going to have some super dooper reason for flating here versus these stack sizes
Thanks everyone for the responses, always interesting to hear others opinions, and differing opinions.
Potentially did lose out on value by shoving turn. "max" in likely hood would fold turn anyway with a smooth call.
It would have been £7 to win £20. He would have needed Ace clubs to call, and even still he's going to fold that right?
My thinking was maybe a bit back to front here,
I felt smooth call, to keep in villain, let them barrel the turn, which I was always shoving on a non club turn. A bet would really commit them given their stack.
Smooth calling the turn kept the pot small should a bad turn card come, a club. I didn't expect Max could get involved (if I raise) he folded more than an origami pro. So also in smooth calling I atleast got another call from him which was some more value for the pot.
It's been highlighted quite a lot in this thread about Max, I didn't really look at that to be honest, I was focussed on vilian. Getting money from Max was like getting blood from a stone. But had he the Ace Clubs for sure I missed out on value.
And raising could result in 2 folds, when I want to get some value from the hand.
I thought the reads I've been given off thread were on the thread, apparently guy leading is a maniac, and the guy behind is a rock solid nit type.
If it's a HU pot v the guy with the lead, do we still raise?
Seems a no brainer flat otf to me. Guy behind prob folding a lot anyway, but it'd be nice for him to get involved too.
If we raise, the 'maniac' betting cud fold hands that we beat, that he wud barrel turn with. (for stacks)
Guy behind can fold hands he might call with if we just call in front of him as opposed to raising.
Turn even easier flat.
What do we have? A low flopped flush.
Is our hand vulnerable to a lot of cards? Yes.
Do we want to build massive pot to stack both players if they have made hands or draws? Yes
Do we want to give a cheap turn away to Mr Nit? No not really.
Do we like money? Yes
We raise.
Its not like its a dry flop... we could be raising anything so raising doesn't even tell villains you have a massive made hand for sure. And knowing Larsons rep he probably wouldn't get credit anyway
I genuinely don't see the benefit of flatting, when all we do is give villains a chance to catch up for pittance.
How do different hands within their ranges respond to the different plays we can make?
And therefore, why is raising flop better than flatting flop?
We're not scared of playing turns deepstacked, that's the only reason I can think of for raising flop with the reads given.
Can happily c/f club turns. doesn't make the flop flat bad just because the best line didn't work out this time.
Yes but how many big draws or big hands will a nit playing 200xBB deep stack off with here? Sets, yes but he'd raise behind so we'd want to flat. Ax of clubs probably.... Kx of clubs, maybe but it's pushing it... Qx of clubs, no. So pretty narrow range we're trying to get value from
Well it's already been covered that he hasn't a pretty narrow range of hands that can catch up. Question should be, do we want to give him an easy fold with KQ/KJ maybe AK, 99-QQ? Remember he didn't 3bet when he had the chance or 4bet given the chance, and he's a nit apparently.
we have the best hand now, raise - it's really that simple
if rock type comes over the top then we have to have a little think about life
your playing this hand by flatting like you have the nuts
Although I don't agree with the implication of an earlier post that the tight villain raising the turn to take advantage of his image as a nit would be a mark of a good player. How many good players would you describe as a nit and how many hands would a nit get to the turn with, that have so little equity that they need to bluff?
Even then, he'd be bluffing into a dry side pot and couldn't win the main pot without a value hand.
It's really easy to play for his stack on later streets when we flat, too.
If we want the nit behind us to continue in the hand, we need to flat the flop. Otherwise he has an easy fold with the entire weaker portion of his range. That means he only continues with the stronger portion of his range that F_Ivanovic has detailed. We don't like narrowing his range to hands that beat us or have good equity. As Lambert has said, there aren't that many scare cards and, even if one hits on the turn or river, we have an easy decision.
We're not playing the hand like we have the nuts. We're playing the hand in the best way to exploit out opponents. If we had the nuts we'd play it the same way but we still have a hand that's ahead of the villain's ranges for continuing in the hand if we flat the flop.
Geldy, our image does matter, of course. However, nits generally are nits because they're playing their own hand and need a big one to be happy. We also have an apparently solid read on the early position aggressor that he likes to barrel. Presumably that read applies to when we're in the pot.
I do agree with something I think rancid said earlier: We should fold pre-flop.
If we know that the EP player is going to 3-bet and then barrel a lot, we want to be getting involved with solid value hands more often than not. 34s is not a value hand.
Choose something in purple or orange instead.
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level?
1. nit with a 200bb stack
2. maniac with 80bb stack
totally opposing forces,mmmmmmm wtf do we do omg idk i am so confused - like having AA pre facing a raise omfg wat do i do - do i flat and keep in weaker hands !
raise for valoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
fwiw i think the nits contuation range if he flats is the same ifhe flats our raise if we size it properly and don't smash any buttons
if we HU v maniac then obvviously flat