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Master Cash 19/12/09 - Make Your Play ONE
Time for the usual Master Cash Quiz.
This is the first of two quizzes this week.
The answer may seem fairly straightforward, but what we are really looking for is explanations of "why?". And if everyone feels the answer is easy, why not try making the opposite case........?
By the way, I think "Hero" here may be Rich Orford.
Right, here we go.
We - "HERO" are in the CO ("Cut-Off", = one before the Button) with £156.40.
Villain is in the BB with £162.43, & is a "solid" regular.
The game is 6 handed Hold 'Em Cash, £0.25 - £0.50.
PRE-FLOP
Fold, Fold, then we (Hero) in the CO pop it up to £3 with Qc-Qd.
Fold, Fold, then BB makes it £12.
We call the £9. (Comment on that?).
So, with about £24.50 in the Pot, we see this flop.....
7s-9s-3s
BB now Bets £13. We call again. (Comment?).
Turn, 9c
So, 7s-9s-3s-9c
BB now Bets £28.
Hero.......
Folds?
Calls?
Raises?
Vote NOW, please. But remermber, it's the thinking behind our Play that really matters.
Reply on Thread, &/OR send an e-Mail to the Show - the addy is skyopen@bskyb.com
Get the replies in, please!
Comments
I don't know where I am, Ive no idea! I dont mind the call pre flop, as I have position, and kind of disguise my hand by just flatting. Ive no idea why he flat calls the flop, now I get serious and ask the question, if he wants to call my re raise OOP gl to him, Ive taken control.
I discount him having a 9, what hand is he re raising pre with OOP that has a 9 in it? other than 99?.
The hand I put him on is ace king, with the ace or king of spades, maybe even both. Other hands in his range include 10 10, JJ, KK or AA, or even the other QQ (in which case he has the fd as well) Of these hands, im winning 3 times, and losing 3 times. Throw in the possibility of a small set, and even pocket 9s cannot be ruled out - and the fact that im guessing, and have made 'position' in the hand useless, and im outta there.
I fold, and go down the pub, and try winning a few quid at snooker, as im just donating here! - btw how did the HERO trebble his buy in playing this passively, must be hitting everything.
DOHH
Villain is noted to be a "solid reg". Now I don't know much about the 50NL solid regs on Sky but on other sites, they're not known to 2-3 barrel bluff. However, they can semi-bluff. So on that note, I include all As-xo hands in their range.
The re-raise preflop doesn't mean that much to me. Our 6x raise from the CO could be viewed as a steal and any solid reg will re-raise a bit lighter than most dependent on their view of Hero (which we don't have). So Villain could have anything with a 9 in down to 8-9s.
Therefore, my range for Villain after the turn action is AA-77, any As hand, K-10+ with the Ks only, as Villain probably expects you to raise with the bare As here, and any hand above 8-9s with a 9 in. Out of that, all we are beating is 88, 1010, JJ and any bare spade hand.
When you stick that into Pokerstove, we are marginally behind (48-52) but as it is £28 to win £78, we're getting nearly 3 to 1 on our money so I call here. River play is dependent on the card, but I'm calling any bets on a non-spade, non Ace/King card, folding if Villain leads out to a spade or an A/K, and betting any non-spade, non A/K card if Villain checks. Should Villain check-raise a "safe" card, then I'm bet-folding.
Oh, here's the maths:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
4,488 games 0.005 secs 897,600 games/sec
Board: 7s 9s 3s 9c
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.318% 47.93% 00.39% 2151 17.50 { QcQd }
Hand 1: 51.682% 51.29% 00.39% 2302 17.50 { 77+, AsKs, AsQs, AsJs, AsTs, A9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, KsQs, KsJs, KsTs, K9s, Q9s, J9s+, T9s, 98s, AsKc, AsKd, AsKh, AsQc, AsQd, AsQh, AsJc, AsJd, AsJh, AsTc, AsTd, AsTh, As9c, As9d, As9h, As8c, As8d, As8h, As7c, As7d, As7h, As6c, As6d, As6h, As5c, As5d, As5h, As4c, As4d, As4h, As3c, As3d, As3h, As2c, As2d, As2h, KsQc, KsQd, KsQh, KsJc, KsJd, KsJh, KsTc, KsTd, KsTh }
Why havent we raised yet? If we raise now we are virtually committing ourself and we dont know where we are in the hand!
So perhaps its best to fold. Or we can call and see what happens on the river, but the liklihood is that we will face having to call a third bet. So get out now imo.
So how is calling the turn and folding the river bad?
I didn't say it was bad, its just not my preferred option.
I want to make my opponent make decisions in a hand and not have decisions forced upon me. I hate the thought of calling off another chunkand then folding, its just not for me. Therefore, i would have raised to find out how strong my QQ was, probably preflop and defo on the flop. I have no spade outs remember so the way the hand has been played out, i believe fold is the best option. Im against a solid regular and i have to take that into account too.
I think the call is auwful. If hes got us beat, we're just donating chips, unless u have a plan to BLUFF the river.
If hes behind, He sees the call as weak, therefore encouraging him to bet the river - at which point u fold.
The only thing we can justifiably call with, as a trappy call, is pocket 9s or AK/AQ spades, bearing in mind we've raised and called a 3 bet pre flop.
I dont see any value in the call.....ur hoping to call the turn bet and get to showdown without investing anymore?
If hes bluffing and we call the turn, then fold the river, its bad.
If hes winning, and we call the turn, then fold the river, its bad.
If we're calling the turn hoping/expecting him to check the river- this is probably even worse! He cud still be winning even if he does. - Its raise or fold.
Position is reversed here, hes had the betting lead throughout (for sum reason) The scenario given means we can take control of the pot here, or give up on it.
Take advantage of the position we were given.
DOHH
Hi
I'm probably re-raising pre-flop but i dont hate the call because atleast I have position. When the villain bets half the pot on the flop i'm taking that as weakness and re-raising him there and then. If he/she comes back over the top of me on the flop then I've got a decision to make but I want to know where I am there and then. If I keep calling down the streets I'm putting money in a pot where i don't know where I stand.
As it is I'm probably re-popping him because although he's bet the flop and the turn he's only putting half pot bets in so it looks to me like he is trying to get me to fold without committing too many chips or get to the river fairly cheapish, (he could have a flush draw and be trying to see another card cheapish. It Could be pocket 8's, pocket 10's, pocket jacks, or some AK type hand. I think I'm good, lets ship it in
Salazar
I think we get to showdown alot when were ahead, and think were ahead a tonne.
BTW i write this post b4 reading any of the other posts...sean
I should have realised I (the Hero - Orford) was up against The Villan (Lisa-Marie Long) with her beloved pocket 9s!
Don't like the pre flop call when villain raises to £12. If you re raise to £30 there and then, you either take the pot or know your Queens are no good.
The flop call is worse - we're only answering questions here with quiet murmours, when we should be asking Paxmanesque questions of villain.
I'm seriously inclined to think I'm behind by the turn...our hand is getting weaker with every falling card and is not going to improve
I feel pretty strongly that calling the turn and folding the river is the only thing we can do here.
What a humdinger this has turned out to be! Keep it coming, the debate is superb.
I have a question (sort of unrelated to the hand really), & I know many are thinking it, but are scared to ask.
LadyFingers said.....
4b/folding QQ is beyond terrible,as is "raising to find out where were at" (ie Raise/folding
Now, poker players everywhere have always said & thought "we must raise to find out where we are".
Suddenly, 2 years ago, some balla types (mostly ex-balla now) started to propogate the view that this was nonsense, & it was laughably bad. And so all the young guns now say "raising to find out where you are", (asking a question & receiving an answer) is incredibly bad.
Would LadyFingers - or anyone - care to expand on that, please?
It's essentially a difference of view between Live players - where Tournament life means everything, & Online Players, who don't value Tourney anything like so valuably, I think.
Interesting how we all see things differently.
Not so sure about in tournys but In cash I definately think theres value in raising to find out where you are.
I dont think there are many bad times to raise at all.... (I don't like the term 'raise to find out where you are' though, as the raise can have more than one use)
If you raise, get the answer, even if its not the answer you want (i.e oppo 'tells you' he's strong, this isn't neccesserily the end, especially when playing deep stacked games) - This isnt the end of the hand. You interpret the information and act accordingly. Granted alot of the time this will be to pass - but not everytime!
The raise/re raise early on in a pot, pre flop or flop, allows you to tell a story later on in the pot, having put your oppo on 2 cards. Your read is everything - Raising as opposed to calling, helps me make a more accurate read!
Sometimes at my level (25/50) - We are both playing stacks of £200 plus. Theres so much play within a hand, nevermind a session.
- Having tried omaha, people tell me the nuts r only temporary. - Alot of the time this is the case in hold em.
All of the above of course works soooo much better with position (as we have in this example)
DOHH
A great explanation by Dohhhhhhh, & one which I can agree with wholly.
1. u lose value from your opponents bluffing range
2. u open yourself to 4 bet semi bluffs that you have to fold to
3. lose pot control, so villains value range (which is ahead) extracts more value from the increased pot size-
4. you lose value from the hands that you fold out which vilain would check call the river
loads more reasons but i cant think.....
Hugo Im sure u probably know what ur on about, and make good points, but I really cnt get on with some of the terminology you use. Its the same with ladyfingers sometimes.
This bluffing range, ev, value, value range, fold equity etc etc,
I must understand what these all are, and now how to apply them, but reading replies riddled with these sort of abbreviations and technical terms, just makes my head spin.
Cud u use examples of each when u are discussing a hand - related to the hand in question of course, or maybe ur own examples.
Only ever read 1 poker book so these terms just send me dizzy.
DOHH
Call from BB - expected.
flop....
Check to the raiser....standard....
Button raiser bets...standard.....
Now the hand starts.....The BB re raises, out of position.....
Is he asking me a question, does he have it?
I ask him if hes asking me a question, therefore answering his question with one of my own....and of course, he gives me an answer....
Happened about an hour ago....The key thing everytime, is position!
DOHH
fair enough sorry its just force of habbit and genuinely prevents longwinded sentences.
without individually explaining each term (i think google or wikipedia will help there) i will try and explain in simple terms why many people don't advocate the term 'asking a question'.
NLH and cards in general is very mathmatical and you need to make OPTIMAL plays to maximise your winnings, with complete information(nye on impossible unless you cheat) there will always be an optimal play.
Therefore a bet that 'asks a question' can not be optimal as there is a right and wrong play depending on opponents whole cards, and this is where opponents hand RANGES come into it, you need to make the optimal play against the whole range of hands your opponent might have.
Take your example, the range of hands villain check raises the flop with would be 66 -77- 88- 99 -10,9- 10,8 - K 10- A,10- various draws, total air, the nuts!...etc etc etc HAND RANGES ARE VERY VILLAIN DEPENDANT SO IT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT OF EACH PLAYER AND THE KNOWLEDGE YOU HAVE OBTAINED PREVIOUSLY THAT FORMULATES THEIR RANGE
so in your example alot of the hands villain will check raise the flop with, he will then fold your 4bet, making it the correct/optimal play to bluff them wether that be by smooth calling the reraise and taking it on the turn, or by raising there and then (as you did) YOU DECIDE WHAT IS OPTIMAL FOR MAX PROFIT.
SO HAVING READ THIS-
refer back to my last post-
1. u lose value from your opponents bluffing range
The range of hands villain will continue bluffing with that you can beat- not applicable in your example as you are on a total bluff.
2. u open yourself to 4 bet semi bluffs that you have to fold to
in your example villain may have K Q (OESD) and shove back at you which would mean you have to fold almost all of your own range. and in this case definately your A 4.
3. lose pot control, so villains value range (which is ahead) extracts more value from the increased pot size
Say you have a hand like K J (top pair) and you only smooth call the bet, the pot is say £30 then villains value bet on the river if he bet 2/3 pot would be £20. if instead you reraise to ask a question, the pot would be more like £60 so his river value bet of 2/3 the pot would be more like £40.
4. you lose value from the hands that you fold out which vilain would check call the river
say again you had a hand like K J (top pair) if you reraise villain will have to fold hands like middle pair and many 1p hands that he would have called a v-bet on the river with. so you miss optimum value.
This is a long post sorry x
5) We turn our range face up when we raise the flop. ie in a HU cash game, i'll be defaulting to c/c-ing a K72r board with everything from A high to KQ which means I can get to showdown alot cheaper OOP. But when someone raises the flop to "find out where they are" it is, by definition, because they have a marginal hand.
6) We fold out hands that we were beating that would have paid us off on subsequent streets.
7) We inflate the pot and decrease the stack:pot ratio, which will increase his bluffing frequency, when our plan is to raise/fold.
8) You get enough information from later streets.
Why are you all so frightened to play 3 streets of poker? If the guy is double barreling alot, and we've been folding to alot, then call-call-fold, if he's been 3 barreling, call-call-call. You're all so desperate to know for certain (which is impossible to do) that you are destroying the value that you get from aggressive players that are IP and are probably getting owned alot when you are r/f or b/f middle pair etc. Sure sometimes he'll have the nuts, and somethimes he'll be bluffing, you're job as poker players in these situations is to figure out if he's agressive enough to have a bluff enough to make a call profitable on every street.
Oh, almost forgot,
r/f QQ is awful because we are turning a hand that plays great vs their 3b range into part of our bluffing range, which, for fairly obvious reasons, is dreadful.
when you raise to find out where youre at they either...
call: you still have no idea whether you have the best hand but now are involved in a much bigger pot with a marginal hand.
fold: ok you found out you had the best hand, unfortunately you just lost all hope of getting money from weaker hands.
raise: well ok they have a better hand, or a draw, or they saw that when we raised we were representing a much stronger hand that were less likely to have so they bluffed us, so we really still dont know where were at, and the worst thing...we had to put in more chips just for the privelidge of finding out were behind.
It seems like its born out of not wanting to get bluffed on later streets or because calling makes our hand look weak, but does it really? think of all the times you flat call with big hands and your opponent doesnt try and double barrell you of a hand. I mean you get just as much information calling and seeing what youre opponent does on later streets as you do raising yet its cheaper.
So you are telling me that your play has gone full circle back to a calling station? you're just gonna call someone who tripple barrels you with second pair? I hope i never get that good.
I understand that you are gonna get agro players who are happy to keep betting with air and the optimal way to get money is just to keep calling but this is not the optimal way to play poker full stop. Sometimes a re-raise on the flop will save you a lot of money. And my thinking is that saving money is as good as winning it
This really is excellent stuff, from "both sides".
I gotta go do a Show now, but I'd like to chime in later.
Keep it coming, & it's great to see a debate without it getting all feisty.