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Live AK spot

edited November 2013 in The Poker Clinic
Live cash 
50/1 

I raise UTG to £7 with AK clubs
Good player UTG+1 flats. 1 other caller

Flop
K Q 9 
2 diamonds 

I bet £15
Good player raises to £35

Effective stack is good player approx £400. 

Table is very weak in general. This is the only player we think is good
Our next move?
«1

Comments

  • edited November 2013
    Maybe call and re-assess on the turn, is this how he plays his draws?

    Unless he has a set of 9s, or KQ, I would see atleast 1 more street.
  • edited November 2013
    I would just give him credit here and fold. This flop smacks your range utg so I doubt a good player is going to be playing back at you light here. Best case scenario is probably a hand like A10/AJdd which is going to bet the turn 100% of the time putting you in a really difficult spot. Raise size is also pretty small which seems to me that he wants a call/raise.
  • edited November 2013
    why so big raise preflop ?   std should be £4  rather win a small pot then lose a potential  big pot

    as played i would call here he could be doing this with a flush draw  or  a q  1 diamond   k j 1 diamond  but if u raise smaller pre the pot would be alot smaller so ya c-bet would be smaller

    7 x kinda mad if u ask me
  • edited November 2013
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot:
    why so big raise preflop ?   std should be £4  rather win a small pot then lose a potential  big pot as played i would call here he could be doing this with a flush draw  or  a q  1 diamond   k j 1 diamond  but if u raise smaller pre the pot would be alot smaller so ya c-bet would be smaller 7 x kinda mad if u ask me
    Posted by IDONKCALLU
    Live cash very different to online
    £7 was actually kind of small for that table. Straddle was on most hands and we're all sitting pretty deep.
    Was playing like a 1/2

    If I had gone £4 there is a good chance I'd have had 7 callers!
    Not ideal oop :)
  • edited November 2013
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot:
    I would just give him credit here and fold. This flop smacks your range utg so I doubt a good player is going to be playing back at you light here. Best case scenario is probably a hand like A10/AJdd which is going to bet the turn 100% of the time putting you in a really difficult spot. Raise size is also pretty small which seems to me that he wants a call/raise.
    Posted by 77Chris91
    I did fold.
    The way I was looking at it there were plenty of better spots at the table.
    I know if I fiat, he will barrell both turn and river.
    I'm struggling to think of many turn cards I like.
    If he's semi bluffing or just plain bluffing then good luck to him.
  • edited November 2013
    call, folding is terrible
  • edited November 2013
    id call for the reasons i have said
  • edited November 2013
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot:
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot : I did fold. The way I was looking at it there were plenty of better spots at the table. I know if I fiat, he will barrell both turn and river. I'm struggling to think of many turn cards I like. If he's semi bluffing or just plain bluffing then good luck to him.
    Posted by Jac35
    WP... No need to tangle OOP against the only good player at the table in a difficult spot.
  • edited November 2013
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot:
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot : WP... No need to tangle OOP against the only good player at the table in a difficult spot.
    Posted by 77Chris91
    yeah sounds good, fold toptop in a live game to a good player who is going to run you over all game.
    Then just wait to stack a fish.

    if the game is too big for you then you should not be sitting

  • edited November 2013
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot:
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot : yeah sounds good, fold toptop in a live game to a good player who is going to run you over all game. Then just wait to stack a fish. if the game is too big for you then you should not be sitting
    Posted by rancid
    Thanks for your input
  • edited November 2013
    Out of curiosity.
    Seeing as all you did was write your usual arrogant rubbish.
    Be nice to know why you think folding is terrible there?
    Folding makes the game too big for me?

    Just interested as to how you draw these conclusions
  • edited November 2013
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot:
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot : yeah sounds good, fold toptop in a live game to a good player who is going to run you over all game. Then just wait to stack a fish. if the game is too big for you then you should not be sitting
    Posted by rancid
    If the villain starts getting out of line we can adjust. God knows why your mentioning stakes can't see the relevance. What range of hands are we doing well against then? Just hoping for a complete air?
  • edited November 2013
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot:
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot : WP... No need to tangle OOP against the only good player at the table in a difficult spot.
    Posted by 77Chris91
    Pretty much the reasons why I folded.
    As I'd had a drink, I made the stupid mistake of folding face up.
    Cue, lots of debate from rest of table :)
  • edited November 2013
    wow post an opinion and that's arrogant omfg

    o sorry jac, YEAH folding toptop to one raise is great play m8

    posting opposing opinions is frowned upon cause we dont want advice we just want people to tel us what great players we are
  • edited November 2013
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot:
    wow post an opnion and that's arrogant omfg
    Posted by rancid
    Clearly you don't like me, that's pretty evident from previous posts.
    Don't know why, but that's up to you.

    Just putting 'folding is terrible' is pretty pointless. If you expand on it, then that's great. It's why I posted the hand.
    The game too big? Why? Just seems a needless dig. Folding to a decent player oop with a hand that is hardly likely to improve for me is bad?
    'Just waiting to stack the fish?'  Again, why? Has nothing to do with this hand. 
    And if you want the truth then, yes, I would rather play a hand against a poor player who is less likely to put me in a difficult spot. Is that not just common sense?

    Its often commented on that people don't use the clinic much. Not hard to see why
    I won't be posting in here again
  • edited November 2013
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot:
    wow post an opinion and that's arrogant omfg o sorry jac, YEAH folding toptop to one raise is great play m8 posting opposing opinions is frowned upon cause we dont want advice we just want people to tel us what great players we are
    Posted by rancid
    What are you talking about?
    I DO want opinions, but reasons are pretty helpful too.
    I was happy with folding at the time but am open to other players thoughts on what I could have done.

    You didn't offer advice. You just said folding was terrible and the game was too big and I was just waiting to stack fish!
  • edited November 2013
    Henrik, Idcu, rancid

    Obv, I was never raising and calling was the option I was close to doing. Felt pretty dirty folding 
    What do we do on a blank turn?



  • edited November 2013
    one thing you havent mentioned is how agro this player is - has he been playing back at you alot, or avoiding you in general, is he a butter or a nit? how often dows he flat your raises? 

    its borderline for me, thats why I ask - against some players I'm never folding this, but against others, it couldnt get in the muck fast enough...

    yeah, folding face up is pretty bad - you are asking the table to run you over...but I think you know that.
  • edited November 2013
    If we call on the flop it's because we think the villain can have semi-bluffs and air enough of the time. C/C on a blank turn that changes nothing. Would be good to know how aggro villain is in general.
  • edited November 2013
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot:
    one thing you havent mentioned is how agro this player is - has he been playing back at you alot, or avoiding you in general, is he a butter or a nit? how often dows he flat your raises?  its borderline for me, thats why I ask - against some players I'm never folding this, but against others, it couldnt get in the muck fast enough... yeah, folding face up is pretty bad - you are asking the table to run you over...but I think you know that.
    Posted by chicknMelt
    Yeah, should have mentioned that.
    As a rule, we're probably going to stay out of each other's way a lot, and stack the fish :)
    Though, As I mentioned the other night, we'd tangled a couple of times previously and I'd won decent pots.
    Up to this point, I've had the goods each time at showdown and I expect him to think I'm probably reasonably strong here.
    I think he would probably flat his draws a lot here.
    He could  however be steaming a little due to the other pots  which makes it more confusing.

    Was kind of inbetween looking to check call the rest of the way or doing what I did and folding.
    Guess I'll never know the right decision.

    Would anybody ever consider reraising on flop?
  • edited November 2013
    id check call down on blnk turn n river whats beating u kq and sets but are kk just going to call ya raise preflop i doubt it same as qq

    so only hand u can put him on is kq  99 and 10 j very narrow range 2 diamonds on flop leans me to think he has a pair with a flush draw a gd flop to raise
  • edited November 2013
    Re-raising the flop is terrible ;)
  • edited November 2013
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot:
    id check call down on blnk turn n river whats beating u kq and sets but are kk just going to call ya raise preflop i doubt it same as qq so only hand u can put him on is kq  99 and 10 j very narrow range 2 diamonds on flop leans me to think he has a pair with a flush draw a gd flop to raise
    Posted by IDONKCALLU
    Sigh, maybe was a bit nitty. 
    Yeah, exactly the hands I was putting him on, perhaps a bit too narrow. I was also ruling out KK and QQ.
    At the time. With little invested it seemed good to just lay it down.
    Maybe could have called the once and seen what he did on a blank turn.
  • edited November 2013
    Might go against the grain but what about checking this flop? I know we don't really want to give away free cards, but it would disguise the strength of your hand somewhat.

    I can understand why you would fold to the R/R, but feels a tad dirty to bet fold TPTK in a live cash game, at least on the flop anyway. 

    As played, I think I call and see what action the turn brings, though I wouldn't be happy about it. This could also lead to a levelling war with yourself!


  • edited November 2013
    Jac I have no opinion of you and have never met you so it's not like I don't like you !

    Ok I'll expand

    It was not a dig but from experience if you start folding toptop to one flop raise it normally means you feel uncomfortable  in the game where you need nuts to continue. It's not going to be good for you if you have this guy on your left.

    The fact that vill is good would mean they can be raising a wide range here and not just nutted.
    toptop is just too strong a hand to be laying down to one raise on this texture.

    if you was playing nl20 on sky are you laying down this hand in this spot ?

    calling flop and folding turn if you really think vill is nutted 2 pr/sets/str is not terrible btw

    but...
    do you fold this on a KQ9 rainbow

    do you fold this on a K72 rainbow

    do you fold this on a KK2 two diamonds

    do you fold this on a AK8 two diamonds

    do you fold this on a KKK :)


    the above is just for fun :)


    If you essentially avoiding certain players at the table then imo it shows weakness, and I would suggest playing lower down. Or just admit to yourself that your going to play risk averse and go bum hunting on a Friday night down the local casino :D




  • edited November 2013
    This is the point I was trying to make earlier... I know it's a dirty flop to fold on but if he's betting 100% of his range on the turn then we don't really have much more info. We basically check calling turn and river hoping he's got the flush draw
  • edited November 2013
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot:
    Jac I have no opinion of you and have never met you so it's not like I don't like you ! Ok I'll expand It was not a dig but from experience if you start folding toptop to one flop raise it normally means you feel uncomfortable  in the game where you need nuts to continue. It's not going to be good for you if you have this guy on your left. The fact that vill is good would mean they can be raising a wide range here and not just nutted. toptop is just too strong a hand to be laying down to one raise on this texture. if you was playing nl20 on sky are you laying down this hand in this spot ? calling flop and folding turn if you really think vill is nutted 2 pr/sets/str is not terrible btw but... do you fold this on a KQ9 rainbow do you fold this on a K72 rainbow do you fold this on a KK2 two diamonds do you fold this on a AK8 two diamonds do you fold this on a KKK :) the above is just for fun :) If you essentially avoiding certain players at the table then imo it shows weakness, and I would suggest playing lower down. Or just admit to yourself that your going to play risk averse and go bum hunting on a Friday night down the local casino :D
    Posted by rancid
    Thanks for replying

    In all honesty, I don't believe the stakes are relevant to this discussion.
    I'm not in the habit of folding TPTK on the flop and so that is why I posted the hand.
    This is one occasion when, to me it was tough, but felt like the right decision at the time. Yeah, I may not be folding this playing NL20 but that is more due to how deep we're playing rather than how much we're playing.
    This is 400BB deep rather than 100BB.

    Your point about how I should admit to myself that i'm bumhunting is redundant. I know already that i'm doing this to some extent. I'm not ashamed of that. We all do it to a large degree.
    It's not just that, of course. I enjoy the social side of playing live, having a drink and hopefully making a few quid.
    Tell me which table you're going to sit at when you first sit down.
    The one with Style, Zing etc or the one which is full of bad players?

    I play and make money in the casino because the standard is far weaker at 50/1 than it is online at NL20.
    If there is one good player at the table and he's going to make my life difficult then I don't have so much of an ego that I want to get into awkward spots against him. Obviously, not ideal when he's on my left. Believe it or not though :) he thinks i'm ok at the game and so is not going to bother trying to get into any levelling wars with me needlessly.
  • edited November 2013
    To me this does seem like an ok fold and would be liekly to make it myself in a similar situation. Given that we will be OOP for the hand and even if we get to the river with a hand by that point is effectively going to be a bluff catcher its going to cost us atleast another 150bb to get there if we think villian is good. As stated before we have little chance of improving and if a scare card comes we are going to have to check fold. If its like the standard in my local casino i think there will be far easier spots if we just let this 1 go and find a better spot.
  • edited November 2013
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot:
    In Response to Re: Live AK spot : Thanks for replying In all honesty, I don't believe the stakes are relevant to this discussion. I'm not in the habit of folding TPTK on the flop and so that is why I posted the hand. This is one occasion when, to me it was tough, but felt like the right decision at the time. Yeah, I may not be folding this playing NL20 but that is more due to how deep we're playing rather than how much we're playing. This is 400BB deep rather than 100BB. Your point about how I should admit to myself that i'm bumhunting is redundant. I know already that i'm doing this to some extent. I'm not ashamed of that. We all do it to a large degree. It's not just that, of course. I enjoy the social side of playing live, having a drink and hopefully making a few quid. Tell me which table you're going to sit at when you first sit down. The one with Style, Zing etc or the one which is full of bad players? I play and make money in the casino because the standard is far weaker at 50/1 than it is online at NL20. If there is one good player at the table and he's going to make my life difficult then I don't have so much of an ego that I want to get into awkward spots against him. Obviously, not ideal when he's on my left. Believe it or not though :) he thinks i'm ok at the game and so is not going to bother trying to get into any levelling wars with me needlessly.
    Posted by Jac35
    Well if that's your apporach to that kinda game/spot then you probbaly better off c/c flop if your reads are correct that vill will barrell all streets he will probably bet them when checked to. Plus you don't have to bloat a pot where you ain't a massive fav 400bb deep on that texture only fwiw.


    good luck




  • edited November 2013
    Don't let em get to you Jac, think you played it fine  (except for fold face up bit)

    Calling in this spot has pretty much capped our range at AK/AA

    A GOOD player may very well have us crushed already and will be able to put us under a ton of pressure with pot sized bets on turn and river. 

    He likely has at worst a very strong draw and can barrell loads of scare cards whether or not they help him.

    It's all very well saying call and reassess, but we need to have a plan for the rest of the hand. Do we want to potentially get 400bb in with one pair?

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