Tournament prizes always change?

PokerNoon

So I'm registered for the 25k bounty hunter tonight. When I registered last week, I think first prize was around £10k and top 5 got paid. Now I look again and first prize is now £7k and top 9 are now being paid.

The prize pool has been effectively shared amongst a greater number of players. 

I've noticed this happens a lot with tournaments. The first prize looks nice and healthy when you first look, but by the time you come to play it's a lot less because a lot more people are being paid.

Is there any reason why Sky do this? Am I the only one who doesn't like the goalposts being moved around like this?

VespaPX

I'm pretty sure its set at a certain percentage of the field get paid, so the more that enter the further down get paid.
Also it moves all the time with late reg, etc.

Tikay10

When the Tourney first goes in the Lobby, the Prizes, & number of people paid, cannot possibly reflect what the position is after everyone has registered, as there is no way of knowing how many people will play.

So the numbers have to change, they cannot "predict" how many runners there will be, & therefore do not know how many places to be paid, ditto the First Prize cannot be known.

I would have assumed it was the same with every Tournament, on every Site, Online or Live.  

Tikay10

Tonight's £25,000 Guaranteed Sky Sports BH, for example, currently only has 69 runners, so it shows this prize pool.....

1st		£7189.50
2nd		£4793
3rd		£2875.80
4th		£2396.50
5th		£1917.20
6th		£1557.72
7th		£1318.08
8th		£1078.42
9th		£838.77

I'd be very surprised indeed if anyone assumed they would be the figures once 400 - or 500, 600, 700, 800, who knows how many? players have Registered.

The goalposts don't move as such, x% of players are always paid, but the number of runners can never be known in advance.  

VespaPX

https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/poker-rules/tournament-payout-structure

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change?:

I'm pretty sure its set at a certain percentage of the field get paid, so the more that enter the further down get paid. Also it moves all the time with late reg, etc.
Posted by VespaPX

Thanks for your reply - that makes sense. 

I still don't like it though - it means that the first people to sign up to a tournament are paying their money and thinking they have a chance of winning a lot more than they eventually could. 

I don't think it's right for Sky to tell people that first place is 10k, allow people to sign up thinking that's how much they will win if they come first...then move it down to 7k (and I imagine it may well move again before the tournament starts).

A more sensible system would be that the top 3/5/10 (whatever they want to set it as) get a set prize amount that doesn't change. Then as more people enter, their entrance money is used to fund prizes for people who finish lower down the pecking order. It doesn't seem fair to play Robin Hood and steal it off the winner.

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change?:

Tonight's £25,000 Guaranteed Sky Sports BH, for example, currently only has 69 runners, so it shows this prize pool..... 1st £7189.50 2nd £4793 3rd £2875.80 4th £2396.50 5th £1917.20 6th £1557.72 7th £1318.08 8th £1078.42 9th £838.77 I'd be very surprised indeed if anyone assumed they would be the figures once 400 - or 500, 600, 700, 800, who knows how many? players have Registered. The goalposts don't move as such, x% of players are always paid, but the number of runners can never be known in advance.  
Posted by Tikay10

I don't think anybody would mind being paid more for winning, Tikay - it's just if you sign up to something expecting that you can win 10k, but by the time the tournament starts it's only 5k, you're going to be a bit disappointed.

Of course nobody can accurately predict the number of runners in advance, but why can't the tournament lobby say 'this is how much you will get paid if the minimum number of entrants sign up to this tournament'. Then as more people enter over and above that number, that just inflates the prize pool.

VespaPX

Its not just Sky - its Poker

FlashFlush

I'm guessing you're very new to poker.

This is just how it's done, when X amount of people are in a tournament, then X amount get paid. So the tournament currently has 70 players, and 10 paid. By 9pm tonight this will have around the 500 mark and about 50 people getting paid! Look at the prize pool, that might give you a rough idea of how many players are expected to pay. With the 70 players at the moment, that's only £2,100, yet the prize pool is £25,000. I don't think Skypoker would let that kind of overlay happen.

Look at that link Vespa found for you, that will give you an idea of how much you could win.

GELDY

there is a way out of this predicament

maybe the prizes should be based on having at least the minimum number needed to meet the guarantee, and only if more sign up will the prizes therafter change. this will mean the initial prizes will be more realistic and closer to the eventual payout.

and if there is overlay, it will mean the extra value is spread over a greater number of players, which seems pretty fair to me.

finally it can be implemented very simply, as the prize algorithm will just need a simple tweak, so it's not as if much effort is required.

Lambert180

As Tikay said though, pretty much every single site/venue live and online do it exactly as Sky do. It's just completely standard.

In fact it would be far more annoying the other way round if anything. Like a few times recently I've late regged the £11 Turbo at night cos there's been quite a bit of overlay (as always ending up filling up though)... when I reg, I want to know what I can win for the field right now, not what Sky estimate it might be IF a load of people join.

Best thing to do is assume it will meet the guarantee, and you can generally assume 1st prize will be in the region of 25% of the total prizepool. It's not an exact science but it's pretty close.

Talon

 I think one of the other problems has arisen here as well. The prize pool that toikay has copied out is completely inaccurate.

  The prizes shown add up to the guaranteed amount which is not right because they should only add up to half of the guarantee because this is a bounty hunter.


 And as far as looking to see what you could win for a tourny. No point in looking until late registration has finbished because that is the true final figure. For a rebuy event you have to wait until the addon period has ended.


 Edit:  The word inaccurate was wrong but it is very skewed at the moment. The lack of runners leaving more in the pool. When it approaches or surpasses the guarantee the prize pool will drop significantly

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change?:

 I think one of the other problems has arisen here as well. The prize pool that toikay has copied out is completely inaccurate.   The prizes shown add up to the guaranteed amount which is not right because they should only add up to half of the guarantee because this is a bounty hunter.  And as far as looking to see what you could win for a tourny. No point in looking until late registration has finbished because that is the true final figure. For a rebuy event you have to wait until the addon period has ended.
Posted by Talon

This is because Sky guarantee the prizepool at £25k but a head is only a head and obviously only 1 head per person. They can't see overlay so double the price of everyone's head, so if somehow it did kick off with that many runners, that IS a true reflection of the payouts, because it would still be £15 on everyone's head, and Sky would make up the £25k themselves and it would be in cash payouts as they can't to heads

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change?:

https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/poker-rules/tournament-payout-structure
Posted by VespaPX

That's quite useful actually. 

Now I understand how it all works. Although one thing I'm seeing consistently in the replies here is 'well this is standard - this is how it's done everywhere'.

Just because this is how something has always been done doesn't mean it's the best way. 

I understand that if there's only a prize pool of £2k then Sky can't reasonably be expected to pay out £25k. I'm happy with that. What I don't think makes sense is that the top places are effectively penalised the greater the numbers. If anything they deserve to be rewarded more handsomely for having conquered a field of 500 runners.

Personally I would prefer to see something like 'if we get 200 runners, then the top 10 will earn this much', followed by a list. If the 200 is exceeded, then places 11+ would also get paid. 

Tournaments outside of poker don't tend to work in this way. If I buy a £1 raffle ticket where the top prize is £100 and my ticket is drawn, I would find it extremely weird and annoying if I was then told 'sorry, we got lots of people who bought raffle tickets, so your prize is now only £38.93.' I would think 'but surely that means you can afford to pay me an even bigger prize?'

Perhaps I am just a newbie fish who doesn't understand the complex nuances of the world of poker. Perhaps I also have no right to come in here and question that which I don't understand fully. But having said that...the logic still makes little sense to me.

a00rock

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change?:

https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/poker-rules/tournament-payout-structure
Posted by VespaPX

Perhaps the statement at the base of this info needs tinkering with as since the intro of late reg the statement is not true in all cases.

Talon

 There is a set payout structure for all events. And it is all based upon percentages dependant upon number of runners. This is due to the fact that the standard is for the top ten percent to get paid. So the numbers have to wait until the final tally is in to work ouit how many are in the top 10%.


  Two things to point out from your post. The raffle ticket analogy is one that is used in poker but only tends to be in a satellite where the prizes are fixed. Also in your raffle ticket one, they pay out the same whether they raise £10 or £10,000,000. Isnt it better to have more paid out when more is put in.

 Secondly: If you started paying more out to the winner as the runners go up. The first thing that would happen is the numbers would drop dramatically because of the payout being too biased in favour of the winner so as it starts to be seen as win or nothing. One of the major draws about tournament poker is the ability to win money without necessarily winning the tournament itself. The payouts are skewed to the top end as it is but it is in the right proportion in my opinion. If you skew it any further that way then it will lead to a fall in participants and therefor a further drop in potential winnings for all.

Jac35

Hi Pokernoon

Off course you're entitled to question things.

The reason these payouts are "standard" is because this format suits the players.

I'm sure the question has been put forward on plenty of occasions. Barring the odd tweak, it has been the preferred method for as long as I can remember.

Players would vote with their feet if they weren't happy.

Poker sites and casinos want to make money. They would soon change things if the majority of players didn't like the present way of doing things.

Let's for instance say that it was decided to pay just those 9 places. How would you feel if you had conquered the field of 500 players and then went out 10th and received nothing for your efforts?

All tournaments look at the number of players and then pay a percentage of the field. Funnily enough, a complaint they is regulary heard, is actually the opposite of what you're suggesting. People sometimes grumble that the payouts are too top heavy.

It's very difficult to please everyone.

Good luck if you're playing tonight. £5000 wouldn't be the end of the world if up you win it.

Jac35

Talon got there first.

What he said

Lambert180

I don't think the OP is arguing for it to be top 9 paid, just that he should see an example of various different payout structures for various different field sizes.

Tbh, this would just be a waste of time though, MEs on Sky ARE going to meet their guarantee or on rare occasions get very very close to it. I'd suggest not even bothering looking in the lobby way before the event because the payouts shown are completely meaningless. If you were the 1st player to reg it would just show 1st = £25,000 but it would be rather silly to think that would be accurate.

Best thing you can do for MEs on Sky to get a rough idea is to divide the guarantee by the amount each player puts in the prizepool and go from there, so for example....

£25,000 guaranteed BH tonight....

£25k divided by £30 (cos £3 is rake) = Expect about 833 runners minimum.

On the basis of 833 runners, expect 80-85 players to get paid (10%)

Expect 1st prize to be £6000 ish (about 25%).

===================================================

Personally I think the field will be closer to 900, with 90ish paid and a 1st prize of about £6.5k but that's just an estimate from me.

FWIW, a mincash in a decent sized field freezeout (like the Primo) is usually 2x the BI so £100 ish for the Primo. In a BH though, a mincash is usually around 1x the BI due to 50% of the prizepool being on heads so about £35 tonight.

PokerNoon

Thanks for your replies guys - you've all been pretty patient

Just to make it clear - I'm not complaining in the slightest about the payout structure. For newer players such as myself, I like that I can get paid down to about 50th place in a lot of tournaments.

All I'm saying is it's misleading to initially put £12500 down as the prize for first place when everyone knows that it's going to end up being more likely around £6k instead. I'm sure Sky have run enough of these tournaments now that they have a rough idea of how many are likely to sign up. 

For someone like myself who didn't understand the tournament payout structure until today, it's a bit confusing. Perhaps Sky could put a statement in the prize pool tab in each tournament lobby that explains that the prize amounts quoted are liable to change, along with a link to a page explaining how it all works in more detail.

For you guys who have played 1000s and 1000s of tournaments, this all probably seems unnecessary. But for newer players, I think it might be a useful compromise - just to make everything crystal clear. 

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change?:

I don't think the OP is arguing for it to be top 9 paid, just that he should see an example of various different payout structures for various different field sizes. Tbh, this would just be a waste of time though, MEs on Sky ARE going to meet their guarantee or on rare occasions get very very close to it. I'd suggest not even bothering looking in the lobby way before the event because the payouts shown are completely meaningless. If you were the 1st player to reg it would just show 1st = £25,000 but it would be rather silly to think that would be accurate. Best thing you can do for MEs on Sky to get a rough idea is to divide the guarantee by the amount each player puts in the prizepool and go from there, so for example.... £25,000 guaranteed BH tonight.... £25k divided by £30 (cos £3 is rake) = Expect about 833 runners minimum. On the basis of 833 runners, expect 80-85 players to get paid (10%) Expect 1st prize to be £6000 ish (about 25%). =================================================== Personally I think the field will be closer to 900, with 90ish paid and a 1st prize of about £6.5k but that's just an estimate from me. FWIW, a mincash in a decent sized field freezeout (like the Primo) is usually 2x the BI so £100 ish for the Primo. In a BH though, a mincash is usually around 1x the BI due to 50% of the prizepool being on heads so about £35 tonight.
Posted by Lambert180

See this is useful. I know to you guys that play constantly that this stuff is obvious, but to a new player, you simply look at the tournament lobby and think 'wow first place, 12.5k, I'll have some of that'. Obviously as a new player, I'm not likely to be having any of that, since much better players are likely to give me a sound  whooping - but it's nice to dream

As you said above - if the payouts in the tournament lobby are meaningless, why even show them at all? Why not put the %'s down instead? At least then it's accurate. 

I'm not asking for the payout structure to be changed, just for an improved level of clarity. Remove as much ambiguity as possible. 

PS Lambert, in unrelated news I thought you came across well on TV the other night.

Talon

  Seems to me like this is one of those situations where the giving of too much information causes the problem.

  The figures they quote in the prizepool are accurate but only at that time and subject to change. I can see how this can be confusing and it does need to be clearly stated they will change until the final number of entries is known.

  A lot of things work this way. One of the reason that things like the lottery do not give running updates on the payouts. It would cause the same type of confusion.


   But i think you should focus on having fun at the tables first and potential winnings afterwards. Will make your play here better for you.

jdsallstar

pokernoon you raise a decent point and I can see how this could be confusing/misleading for new players. I myself remember being really disappointed when I first started playing, having reg'd for a tourney saw a big juicy top prize and then when the tournament had actually kicked off the amount was halved. I now understand why this happens but it would be good if there was a way to prevent this disappointment for new players.

Could always put up "typical payout percentages/numbers" then change to actual amounts a hour (or whatever) before tournament kicks off. How difficult this would be to implement software-wise I don't know but would certainly be one way round it.

VespaPX

Its always made me wonder how the Lottery can advertise the Jackpot at , say, £4million when they don't how many people are going to buy a ticket.

fishtales

Also adding about the raffle ticket scenario, isn't the lottery just a raffle ticket and the prize payouts are based on the number of entrants and not a set amount as the lottery jackpot each weeks is different as are all the other payouts except 3 numbers which is a set amount, so it all depends on the raffle you enter.

If fact most money raffle prizes are based on tickets sold rather than a set amount. If selling tickets at £1 each you couldn't offer a £1000 first prize if you couldn't guarantee you would sell over 1000 tickets.

Now a raffle for a holiday or non money prize you wouldn't be able to change but are taking the risk that you have to sell enough tickets to cover the cost, anything over that is a bonus.

EDIT: Talon beat me to the lottery example!!

fishtales

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change?:

Its always made me wonder how the Lottery can advertise the Jackpot at , say, £4million when they don't how many people are going to buy a ticket.
Posted by VespaPX

The quoted jackpot, unless a special one is always an estimate.

david666

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change?:

I don't think the OP is arguing for it to be top 9 paid, just that he should see an example of various different payout structures for various different field sizes. Tbh, this would just be a waste of time though, MEs on Sky ARE going to meet their guarantee or on rare occasions get very very close to it. I'd suggest not even bothering looking in the lobby way before the event because the payouts shown are completely meaningless. If you were the 1st player to reg it would just show 1st = £25,000 but it would be rather silly to think that would be accurate. Best thing you can do for MEs on Sky to get a rough idea is to divide the guarantee by the amount each player puts in the prizepool and go from there, so for example.... £25,000 guaranteed BH tonight.... £25k divided by £30 (cos £3 is rake) = Expect about 833 runners minimum. On the basis of 833 runners, expect 80-85 players to get paid (10%) Expect 1st prize to be £6000 ish (about 25%). =================================================== Personally I think the field will be closer to 900, with 90ish paid and a 1st prize of about £6.5k but that's just an estimate from me. FWIW, a mincash in a decent sized field freezeout (like the Primo) is usually 2x the BI so £100 ish for the Primo. In a BH though, a mincash is usually around 1x the BI due to 50% of the prizepool being on heads so about £35 tonight.
Posted by Lambert180

I think in this case, with the tourney being a bounty hunter, first place based on these numbers would be in the region of 3.25k + head prizes, as opposed to 6.5k for a freezeout, just to clarify for pokernoon so he doesn't get another dissapointment when he binks,

GL ALL

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change?:

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change? : I think in this case, with the tourney being a bounty hunter, first place based on these numbers would be in the region of 3.25k + head prizes, as opposed to 6.5k for a freezeout, just to clarify for pokernoon so he doesn't get another dissapointment when he binks, GL ALL
Posted by david666

I'm such a noob I actually had to look up what a 'bink' was. 

I've no idea how anybody found anything out before the internet existed.

splashies

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change?:

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change? : I'm such a noob I actually had to look up what a 'bink' was.  I've no idea how anybody found anything out before the internet existed.
Posted by PokerNoon

We'll have to get a sports trading thread going in Punters Corner in the near future. I can't recall there being many in the past and I'm sure it's something the guys in Punters Corner would be interested in.

Most of the guys who post in there are winning poker players too, so if you need any advice give one of us a shout.

A former SkyPoker reg, simuk, has been crushing sports trading these past couple of years after making the transition from poker.

It'll be good to get some interest going with someone who's had experince in it, like yourself.

PokerNoon

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change?:

In Response to Re: Tournament prizes always change? : We'll have to get a sports trading thread going in Punters Corner in the near future. I can't recall there being many in the past and I'm sure it's something the guys in Punters Corner would be interested in. Most of the guys who post in there are winning poker players too, so if you need any advice give one of us a shout. A former SkyPoker reg, simuk, has been crushing sports trading these past couple of years after making the transition from poker. It'll be good to get some interest going with someone who's had experince in it, like yourself.
Posted by splashies

Sure, that sounds good to me.

I started playing poker as I wanted to diversify my income stream. So I set myself the target of playing 2000 hands per day minimum on advanced poker training, and I think I'm progressing nicely given the fact I'd never even played a month ago. Still not a winning player yet, but getting there. Qualifed for the tourney stated in this thread from a freeroll last week which I was pleased with. Also getting reasonably good at low level DYMs now, but still struggling with cash. I tend to build up a small amount over about an hour, then lose it all in one hand.

Tikay10

I hope it all makes sense now Pokernoon, many people have explained it better than my effort.

The Raffle Prize analogy is flawed, that is comparing apples & pears. Raffles have fixed, pre-determined prizes, & do not depend on how many tickets sold.

A poker Tournament is exactly like the National Lottery, Football Pools (remember them?) or the Tote Jackpot - the prizes are totally dependant upon number of tickets/entries sold.

Stick around, & it'll all drop into place soon enough.

If you want to know EXACTLY what you will win, & how many places paid, then Sky Poker - & every other Online Poker site - do that by offering SNG's. These have a fixed prize structure, as the precise Prize Pool is known in advance, as only x players - no more no less - can enter.
 
Incidentally, as a side issue........if you had asked this question on any other poker forum - & there are hundreds of them - you would not have had the sort of reception you got here, where everyone has been so helpful, & understood the issue. Not one person has been sarcy or rude, & that alone is a testament to the players here. 

Hang around man, & enjoy your poker. The best thing about poker is the learning curve. I've been on the scene for half a lifetime, & I still learn new stuff every day. 

Take care now, & run good at the tables.