Dym question what is the right play????

IDONKCALLU

in a dym say u have double stack so 4 k theres 4 left 2 other stacks have 3k and 1 stack is on 2 k blinds 150/300 guy with 2 k jams would u call with ak ?

cenachav

No.  No point getting involved

waller02

Always best to be the shover rather than calling off. If you both had the same stack and it was a you or him situation then I'm calling......could be wrong but that's my opinion!

IDONKCALLU

what im thinking icm n all that

jdsallstar

I think it depends on the player who's shoving and the position they're shoving from but i think i'm calling more often than not to be honest. It's probably wrong from an ICM perspective but you're flipping or ahead most of the time against the majority of players. You lose and you're still not out of it by any means and 4k stack can disappear pretty quick at 300 blinds.

as i say im probably wrong but im calling about 8 times out of 10 i reckon.

bbMike

If you're not calling off with AK with 2k behind, then you can pretty easily get drawn in as people shove on you and you lose 600 every 4 hands. Your 4k isn't going to last long. You are better to call there and then use your own fold equity on others to rebuild if you are unlucky enough to lose the hand. In my opinion (very average DYMer!).

DoubleAAA

I'm calling here mate vs the standard player.  He's jamming 6.5bbs, so this the kind of range im putting him on 22+, Ax, KTs+, QJs, KJo+ which makes us almost 63%

Table dynamics do come into play though.  Let's say for example whenever we're sb and the bb is a nit then I would fold this as I know where I can steal chips without much hassle.  Would be good if you could elaborate on the dynamics, ie reads on players position etc

Tikay10

In Response to Dym question what is the right play????:

in a dym say u have double stack so 4 k theres 4 left 2 other stacks have 3k and 1 stack is on 2 k blinds 150/300 guy with 2 k jams would u call with ak ?
Posted by IDONKCALLU

No, not in a month of Sundays.

Assume he has, say, 10-10. We are flipping, & will win 50% of the time. 50-50 shot.
 
Now look at the maths of being the SHOVER with the same hand, A-K. 

50-50 shot? NO! If we force a fold 3 times in 4 (& we will) the maths become very different now. Instead of 50-50, the maths are MUCH more in our favour. 

I take the view - controversially - that if I shove, & I force them to fold, & we don't see a flop, in most cases I will win the hand. Edgy stuff. Level 23 that.

There is no precise "right or wrong" of course, these are just opinions. Table or stack dynamics may require us to modify our regular strategy.     

Jac35

In Response to Re: Dym question what is the right play????:

In Response to Dym question what is the right play???? : No, not in a month of Sundays. Assume he has, say, 10-10. We are flipping, & will win 50% of the time. 50-50 shot.   Now look at the maths of being the SHOVER with the same hand, A-K.  50-50 shot? NO! If we force a fold 3 times in 4 (& we will) the maths become very different now. Instead of 50-50, the maths are MUCH more in our favour.  I take the view - controversially - that if I shove, & I force them to fold, & we don't see a flop, in most cases I will win the hand. Edgy stuff. Level 23 that. There is no precise "right or wrong" of course, these are just opinions. Table or stack dynamics may require us to modify our regular strategy.      
Posted by Tikay10

Disagree a little here. If I was in the blinds, I think I would be calling here in normal circumstances. 

We very likely have the best hand.

if we do lose then  we're a long way from being dead in the game.

Plenty of times I've passed up these situations and regretted it. We're far from a lock to cash in this scenario and it's frustrating when a couple of orbits later we find ourselves having to go to war with a weaker hand.

Obviously agree with not calling for our tournament wherever possible.

Also, how the table is playing would be a big consideration. If it looks likely that 2 players will clash soon enough, then it's probably a fold.

FCHD

With 13 BB that's a definite fold for me 4-handed in a DYM.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Dym question what is the right play????:

In Response to Re: Dym question what is the right play???? : Disagree a little here. If I was in the blinds, I think I would be calling here in normal circumstances.  We very likely have the best hand. if we do lose then  we're a long way from being dead in the game. Plenty of times I've passed up these situations and regretted it. We're far from a lock to cash in this scenario and it's frustrating when a couple of orbits later we find ourselves having to go to war with a weaker hand. Obviously agree with not calling for our tournament wherever possible. Also, how the table is playing would be a big consideration. If it looks likely that 2 players will clash soon enough, then it's probably a fold.
Posted by Jac35

Yes, there is no absolute right or wrong, & we could throw it back & forth all day.

The crucial point is that in everything we do 4 handed in a DYM, being the shover generally beats being the caller. Everyting else is open to debate.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Dym question what is the right play????:

With 13 BB that's a definite fold for me 4-handed in a DYM.
Posted by FCHD

Me too.

The thing I most dislike about this spot is that WE are Billy Big Stack, there are two Middleys, & the shover is Sally Small.

I like being Billy. It gives me every option, every hand. They all struggle for their DYM life, Sally desperately tries for the 2xUP, & we sit back & smile. 

But.....

If I call here, & Sally Small wins, the roles are reversed. Now her name is Billy, & my name is Sally.

I think Billy should mostly sit back, & let the others do the dirty work. Risk-averse, see?   

devonfish5

think it's close for me.
calling in dym is never good but as Jac says we are good a lot of the time here, obviously reads would also be a factor here, and we are far from dead if we lose.
anytime we have a chance to take a player out, and cash... has to be a good play, especially when we are not risking our own life.
yes you could fold here as TK says, but is it a chance missed?
tight is always right in dym's but sometimes you need to make a stand and play some poker.
I deffo would not be calling here for my life but for 2k and a chance to cash I might..it would all come down to who I'm up against and how he/she has been playing this game.(if I noticed    ) and how I was feeling at the time.
I probably fold more often than not though without specific reads.
 

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Dym question what is the right play????:

think it's close for me. calling in dym is never good but as Jac says we are good a lot of the time here, obviously reads would also be a factor here, and we are far from dead if we lose. anytime we have a chance to take a player out, and cash... has to be a good play, especially when we are not risking our own life. yes you could fold here as TK says, but is it a chance missed? tight is always right in dym's but sometimes you need to make a stand and play some poker. I deffo would not be calling here for my life but for 2k and a chance to cash I might..it would all come down to who I'm up against and how he/she has been playing this game.(if I noticed    ) and how I was feeling at the time. I probably fold more often than not though without specific reads.  
Posted by devonfish5

Yes, I agree with all that - but especially the final sentence.

devonfish5

In Response to Re: Dym question what is the right play????:

In Response to Re: Dym question what is the right play???? : Yes, I agree with all that - but especially the final sentence.
Posted by Tikay10

 PHEW !!!

(* *)
   ^
DEV

Jac35

More importantly. 

Sort it out Sky!!!!

Wrong section of forum

Tikay10

MORE exclamation marks please. 4? Pfft, amateur stuff. I'm barely even outraged.  

Jac35

In Response to Re: Dym question what is the right play????:

MORE exclamation marks please. 4? Pfft, amateur stuff. I'm barely even outraged.  
Posted by Tikay10

Darn it.

mildly disgruntled though?

Tikay10

No no, in my patented Exclamation Mark Hot-O-Meter, 4 = Mini-Chunter.

MAXALLY

I'm SALLY!

So who does that make the silly Billy?

Oh.....move this to the clinic please or one of the many IDCU's diaries he has started

devonfish5

PHEW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

better !!!!

(* *)
   ^
dev

FCHD

Was watching an old episode of QI last night where they discussed the briefly fashionable punctuation character, the interrobang. Perhaps that would ba appropriate in this instance.

alex1229

Of course im calling 

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Dym question what is the right play????:

Was watching an old episode of QI last night where they discussed the briefly fashionable punctuation character, the interrobang. Perhaps that would ba appropriate in this instance.
Posted by FCHD

Ooh, I LOVE the interrobang!

Pretty cool word, too.

The only problem I have with it is that I don't know how to type it, standard keyboards don't include an interrobang.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang

Tikay10

 ‽

Boom!

Tikay10

Correction.

BOOM‽

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Dym question what is the right play????:

With 13 BB that's a definite fold for me 4-handed in a DYM.
Posted by FCHD

We're only calling 6.5bbs.  We're around 63% vs players range and we still have enough chips for Fold Equity if we lose.  As I stated earlier, it really is dependant upon the table dynamics etc.

DOHHHHHHH

I said I'd call off forum. No idea if that's right though.

There are ICM calculators out there I think that can tell you the correct play here.

Move it to the clinic and you'll probably get the right answer.

cenachav

My life is over.  I agreed with Tikay.  Send me out to pasture now

chicknMelt

2 key things missing from the question - what are your reads on the villain? and are you in a blind?

instead, I think you will get more valuable information if I answer what equity you need against the villains shoving range - it completely depends on how tight they are whether you should be calling or folding...

for a £10 DYM, icm values of the 4 remaining players would be

4k stack = £8.54

3k stack = £7.70

3k stack = £7.70

2k stack = £6.05

if we win the hand our ICM value is £10 (DYM is finished)

if we lose the hand the ICM value swapps with the 2k stack... so our ICM value would be £6.05.

so we gain £1.46 if we call and win, and lose £2.49 if we call and lose on average.

for our play to break even, we need at least £1.46/£2.49 = 0.58 = 58% equity.

to give you an idea of how wide the villain would need to be shoving to make the call profitable (58.5% equity) - the villains range would need to be:

AA-22, AK-A9, KQ, KJ, QJ.

if you think they are dhoving tighter than that then its a fold. Obv being in a blind means you need less equity, but you get the idea. I would say readless, and not in a blind= fold. readless in the bb = call

DoubleAAA

I gave my answer assuming we were on the bb and having a range around 63% 22+, Ax, KTs+, QJs, KJo+ vs what I call a standard shove for 6.5bbs (although should actually be far wider).  Agree with you Andy, if we're not on the bb then we can fold but if we are then it's basically a snap call unless the guy is a complete nit.