You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.

You might need to refresh your page afterwards.

Sky Poker forums will be temporarily unavailable from 11pm Wednesday July 25th.
Sky Poker Forums is upgrading its look! Stay tuned for the big reveal!

30BB am i better off to just wait for a hand with jamming potential than call 3xBB with this

2»

Comments

  • edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: 30BB am i better off to just wait for a hand with jamming potential than call 3xBB with this:
    In Response to Re: 30BB am i better off to just wait for a hand with jamming potential than call 3xBB with this : Sorry, I couldn't see it when I posted, I can see it now. If we flat call pre-flop there is 7.5BB in the pot. Let's say the villain c-bets 4BB, there is now 11BB in the pot. Such a co-ordinated flop is highly unlikely, however how often will the villain hold a hand which justifies calling off the rest his stack for his tournament life on such a scary flop? Can he call with AK/AQ without Ah? Can he call with any pair 77 or below? Can he call with the same hand as us? We're shoving 9BB to win 11BB, so we need to get the shove through less than 50% of the time to show an immediate profit, and that's without factoring in the equity we have when called.   The 3 hearts on the board that means 58% of the time the villain will have no heart in his hand at all. The chance of him holding a made flush is only 2.5%.
    Posted by GaryQQQ
    Your not taking into account the villains c-betting range on this sort of flop texture. Any half decent villain is just not gonna be c-betting complete air out of a now 17bb stack. This sort of board smacks your calling range. When the villain does c-bet this sort of board I think there range is heavily weighted towards overpairs/decent flush draws. This is why imo a shove here with KQcc is pretty awful. I expect them to fold a small % of the time and when we are called we have very little equity.
  • edited February 2014
    yet again KQ has cost me my tournament life
    craigcu12 Small blind   100.00 100.00 4815.00
    CLukey05 Big blind   200.00 300.00 1505.00
      Your hole cards
    • Q
    • K
         
    CharlieF29 Fold        
    masheder01 Call   200.00 500.00 2168.74
    paula1989 Fold        
    kwd All-in   1113.74 1613.74 0.00
    craigcu12 Call   1013.74 2627.48 3801.26
    CLukey05 Fold        
    masheder01 Call   913.74 3541.22 1255.00
    Flop
       
    • 2
    • 4
    • 10
         
    craigcu12 Check        
    masheder01 All-in   1255.00 4796.22 0.00
    craigcu12 Call   1255.00 6051.22 2546.26
    craigcu12 Show
    • Q
    • K
         
    masheder01 Show
    • A
    • 6
         
    kwd Show
    • A
    • A
         
    Turn
       
    • 6
         
    River
       
    • 5
         
    kwd Win Pair of Aces 3541.22   3541.22
    masheder01 Win Pair of 6s 2510.00   2510.0
  • edited February 2014
    i should fold the flop but thought to myself i've put l lots in now so took the call for the last 6 blinds i was thinking of jamming postflop but i could see that too being called. we are too reliant on hitting K or Q when the bet size at this stage is not min bets
  • edited February 2014
    when i look back at these 4 hands they all have the same trouble.
    KQ looks a strong hand but it's not strong enough to do a 3bet as the hands we want to see are going to fold leaving us with only the better hands, then on the flop if he cbets at points like this a raise by KQ would see the hero jam most days.
  • edited February 2014
    You should fold preflop Craig, if you don't wanna fold then it's a jam.

    Don't blame the hands, it's often gonna be either the way you've played it, or just variance in terms of whether u got coolered, whether someone peeled trash and got there etc etc.

    KQ is a better hand than JT by far, arguing otherwise is just silly. It's also an amazing hand when you're coming across a lot of really weak players (like you will be) because they will raise, or raise/call or limp/call SO many hands that KQ crushes.

    FWIW....

    JTo above - It's a fold pre and you got insanely lucky

    KQo (just below JTo) - It's marginal imo, shoving is probably good depending on dynamics etc. Don't expect people to fold AJ when you have 10xBB because of the tiny chance you might have AQ/AK

    You can't use those 2 hands as a form of evidence just because in one you got really lucky and happened to win, and one you lose a standard 40/60, so decide JT must be better than KQ 
  • edited February 2014
    Craig, that KQ above should've been in the muck pre. But if you want to play it, then re shove pre. As a last resort, at least bet enough on the flop to put masheder01 all in. Will they still call? Possibly. But at least you've put them to the test. 

    If I was going to cold call the shorty shove pre, it's to put the other guy all in on any flop if he comes along with us.
  • edited February 2014
    in general I still see KQ as a hand that is much better than J10.

    the time i'm refering to J10 being better than KQ relates mostly to the way gary is treating this villian.

    he seems to be making out that after the player of the original hand is doing 3xBB because he is scared most flops, so we will be able to jam flops 9,10 and J high with KQ and he will be too scared to call.

    the 3 other hands i posted related to what garys thinking is with KQ.

    the hand where i shoved J10 gary is saying in an earlier post that KQ should 3bet preflop and the 3xBB that was made by the player UTG is more like a sign of worry than strength.

    the 3rd KQ relates to gary when he is thinking even when a player has 3xBB preflop and spent 4BB with his cbet he will still insist on folding the hand, if this guy wants to jam the flop i can see him calling if i jammed rather than Ch/C.

    the reason i said KQ is probably worst than J10 related to gary saying that he would jam KQ on any flop that isn't A high, that's where i feel J10 has more strength as jamming K or Q high and KQ is mostly splitting the pot or loosing the whole stack J10 can just make the easy fold, a jam on J and 10 high would see premium pair call most times so the KQ will need runner runner two pair where as J can hit most times OTT only JJ on 10 high or TPTK will allow KQ to hit OTT as for 9 high or smaller they about simular strength needing a flip.

    gary's probably making things confusing.
  • edited February 2014
    paul
    In general KQ is CERTAINLY a hand i would have over J10.
  • edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: 30BB am i better off to just wait for a hand with jamming potential than call 3xBB with this:
    In Response to Re: 30BB am i better off to just wait for a hand with jamming potential than call 3xBB with this : I did and the post is still there. Villain's range for even c-betting a 8h9h10h is gonna be heavily weighted towards overpairs/big flush draws. Jamming a flop like this with so little equity is not going to be even close to profitable imo. Fwiw I agree that we should flat preflop.
    Posted by 77Chris91
    I just ran 8h9hTh and my original estimate of the villains opening range through Flopzilla (with our KQcc removed from the deck obv.)

    Using that range it's impossible for him to flop a straight or two pairs. He will flop a made flush 4% of the time, a set 7% of the time. 15% of the time he will hold an overpair, 11% of the time he'll have a nut-flush draw. So 37% of the time he will have a relatively easy call.

    63% of the time he's going to find himself facing a difficult decision for his tournament life, often holding ace-high, an open-ended straight draw or a gut-shot.


    We need a fold <40% of the time for our flop shove to be profitable.
  • edited February 2014
    Funnily enough I just found myself facing a 3x open, holding KQ on the button, 20BB effective stacks.

    OK, my cards weren't suited, apart from that it was a very similar situation to that in the OP.

    As you can see I practise what I preach; a 3-bet shove is preferable to either a pre-flop fold or a flat call.

    Had I made my other suggested play, the "call pre/shove any flop" move I almost certainly would have got a fold on the flop. If called I would have won.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    kavosindi Small blind  300.00 300.00 26170.00
    vrp25 Big blind  600.00 900.00 31683.13
      Your hole cards
    • K
    • Q
         
    Spangs Fold     
    dadster Fold     
     Raise  1800.00 2700.00 33820.00
    GaryQQQ All-in  11876.00 14576.00 0.00
    kavosindi Fold     
    vrp25 Fold     
     Call  10076.00 24652.00 23744.00
     Show
    • J
    • K
       
    GaryQQQ Show
    • K
    • Q
       
    Flop
       
    • 6
    • 6
    • 9
         
    Turn
       
    • Q
         
    River
       
    • J
         
    GaryQQQ Win Two Pairs, Queens and 6s 24652.00  24652.00
  • edited February 2014

    Footnote to the above;

    I just won that tournament. I almost certainly wouldn't have had I not doubled with my KQ in that key final-table hand above. As I said earlier in this thread we should be playing to win in MTTs.

    If your prefered style is to make nitty preflop folds to a single action with hands as strong as KQs you're in the wrong game, your mentality is probably better suited to DYMs.

    https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby?action=go_tnmt_lobby&game_id=9055133&guid=4e5e7c2c-0665-4d68-943e-1c957ba57153

     
     
          
    GaryQQQ1700001st/85£36.34 + £20.65 Head Prizes5 
     02£23.33 + £13.91 Head Prizes8 
     03£14.54 + £2.97 Head Prizes2 
     04£11.79 + £13.91 Head Prizes9 
     05£9.63 + £6.82 Head Prizes5 
     06£8.03 + £2.26 Head Prizes2
  • edited February 2014
    Well done Gary.

    But he gifted you that DU. It's an awful open size, and an awful call off. I'm not sure that one hand above proves any kind of point about KQ and how best to play it though.
  • edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: 30BB am i better off to just wait for a hand with jamming potential than call 3xBB with this:
    Effective stack is only 20bb. Pretty hand. In position. I would be tempted to peel as well. Though it's probably just a fold pre, not really playing deep enough to make it worthwhile. Type of hand where we typically win a small pot or lose a large one.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    Well, you play your way and I'll play mine. I'm sure we'll both do well.

    Poker would be boring game if it was solved and there was a perfect play for every situation.
  • edited February 2014
    Going back to OP I would call the flop!

    Or 3 bet the button. Never really folding here IMO 
Sign In or Register to comment.