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Disillusioned

ACBRO67ACBRO67
edited March 2014 in The Poker Clinic
Always seem to be on a rollercoaster with Sky Poker. Whenever I get a decent win I really pay for it for the next few weeks (don't play every night). Here is just one of tonight's offerings......
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancedigerSmall blind 40.0040.001750.00lozzzaberrBig blind 80.00120.004608.75 Your hole cardsKK   ACBRO67Raise 320.00440.004061.25sillyhead7Fold    THE_FACEFold    xxxxxCall 320.00760.003605.00digerFold    lozzzaberrCall 240.001000.004368.75Flop  J59   lozzzaberrCheck    ACBRO67Bet 750.001750.003311.25xxxxxCall 750.002500.002855.00lozzzaberrFold    Turn  A   ACBRO67Bet 1250.003750.002061.25xxxxxAll-in 2855.006605.000.00ACBRO67Call 1605.008210.00456.25ACBRO67ShowKK   xxxxxShowQ10   River  8   xxxxxWinStraight to the Queen8210.00 8210.00
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Comments

  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited February 2014
    You could slow down on the turn, you know.

    I'll leave it at that.


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  • ACBRO67ACBRO67
    edited February 2014
    tbh i expected the ace , and kind of resigned myself to an ace rag  but when his hand unfolded...!!!

     TBH I play here for a bit of banter ,a bit of fun and hopefully I can win a few quid. I don't mind losing because I'm in a very fortunate position that I can afford to lose a little (not bragging, I can't lose much!!) but it really gets my goat when hands like this win.
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  • KAM99KAM99
    edited February 2014
    No reason not to check the turn and call river if need be. Don't fall into that intitlement trap that big poket pairs give some people. It is still only a pair. Anyway you got iit in good and lost out which is a shame, but it happens. To be honest though, most times you make that call you will be in real trouble I would say.
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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited February 2014
    never quite understand why people post stuff like this, any mtt player suffers these sort of things umpteen times every day but its all about the long game, if people arnt getting it in bad against me often then im smoking a pouch of baccy rather than lambert and butlers so its all good!!!

    P.S CUT OUT THE 4X RAISES, FAR TO BIG SIR!!!
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  • KAM99KAM99
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    never quite understand why people post stuff like this, any mtt player suffers these sort of things umpteen times every day but its all about the long game, if people arnt getting it in bad against me often then im smoking a pouch of baccy rather than lambert and butlers so its all good!!! P.S CUT OUT THE 4X RAISES, FAR TO BIG SIR!!!
    Posted by THEROCK573
    Think this is first time I've ever heard of 4xbb raise being too big.  Sure MTT often they will be between 2.5 and 3, and sometimes even 2 as the blinds go up, but I don't see 4x as huge, and certainly if a lot of people have been calling 3x raises at this level. Hell, early stages of MTT's I quite often ship AA or KK preflop if I think there is a chance someone will call, and early stages of smaller buyins there often is.

    Think we do need to take into account the table and how thats playing with the raises sometimes. Don't want half a table calling with KK really.
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  • 77Chris9177Chris91
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : Think this is first time I've ever heard of 4xbb raise being too big.  Sure MTT often they will be between 2.5 and 3, and sometimes even 2 as the blinds go up, but I don't see 4x as huge, and certainly if a lot of people have been calling 3x raises at this level. Hell, early stages of MTT's I quite often ship AA or KK preflop if I think there is a chance someone will call, and early stages of smaller buyins there often is. Think we do need to take into account the table and how thats playing with the raises sometimes. Don't want half a table calling with KK really.
    Posted by KAM99
    Really!?

    Really!?!?


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  • 12671267
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    tbh i expected the ace , and kind of resigned myself to an ace rag  but when his hand unfolded...!!!  TBH I play here for a bit of banter ,a bit of fun and hopefully I can win a few quid. I don't mind losing because I'm in a very fortunate position that I can afford to lose a little (not bragging, I can't lose much!!) but it really gets my goat when hands like this win.
    Posted by ACBRO67
    When you bet the turn, and get raised,  You pretty much never ever have the best hand.  He will almost always have an ace or a set and you will behind.
    This is a very rare occasion where he tried to bluff you, but even then he had still had outs.
    Long term you are just in awful shape and should fold. Folding kings is just something you have to get used to, a great hand pre, but can become a nothing hand down the streets.
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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : Think this is first time I've ever heard of 4xbb raise being too big.  Sure MTT often they will be between 2.5 and 3, and sometimes even 2 as the blinds go up, but I don't see 4x as huge, and certainly if a lot of people have been calling 3x raises at this level. Hell, early stages of MTT's I quite often ship AA or KK preflop if I think there is a chance someone will call, and early stages of smaller buyins there often is. Think we do need to take into account the table and how thats playing with the raises sometimes. Don't want half a table calling with KK really.
    Posted by KAM99
    well if you ask any decent mtt player if 4 x is to big at this blind level im pretty sure all will agree with me!!!
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  • KAM99KAM99
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : Really!? Really!?!?
    Posted by 77Chris91
    Yes, really. Maybe less so at 6-max like here, but I'd consider it at full-ring. I'm not going to solidly base my open raise on the blind level if table dynamics at that point are showing half the table calling 3xbb raise.

    Again I stress this depends on the stakes, player quality and how the table is playing. I mean look at this hand as proof. He raised 4xbb and got called by a marginal hand. Not uncommon at this blind level to still have plenty of fish playing far to many hands that will call larger raises or even shoves with stupid cards.

    I base my play on the table and players, rather than what the blinds are. I'm not suggesting 4x should be standard, and far from it. So not sure why you are so incredulous about it.

    I won't lie, MTT's aren't my main game at all, as mostly cash game player. Still, if I was sat at a MTT where 2-3 players were calling 3xbb raises thats really not what I'd want with KK, would you?
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited February 2014
    As long as he's also raising his small PP's, 67s, J10o etc etc by 4x, then it's all good I suppose. I get the impression that isn't the case though.

    We don't know the table dynamic. If there are people who will call 4x, then go for it. But we don't know this, so with our limited info 4x is a bit extreme.
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  • Chris_McChris_Mc
    edited February 2014
    i think your raise was fine than and shouldve got rid of the hand you where up against, but each too thier own thier money thier cards.

    having said that i would not have been calling on the turn, first of he called the raise so putting him on AK AQ 
    10 10+ IMO. when the A came i would have too let it go any two pair is beating you. any set if he called with pp. and the A made it,  so looking at it im defo mucking my cards there although its hard it does look pretty.

    Is he going all the with just J high. if so id say miby AJ if he was and if so the A came anyway.

    even tho he did show Q10o without seeing his crads is he raing me with worse. 




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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited February 2014
    i dont know why people are saying 4x is fine, it dosent matter if his range is balanced and hes raising 4x with all his hands the sizing is just hideous. when stacks get shallower we smallen our raise, we start making it 4x and then our flop bets has to be bigger, our turn bet does and so does our river bet, this isnt how tournament poker is played, a smaller raise does the same job as a 4x and preserves ur chips at the same time.
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  • Chris_McChris_Mc
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    i dont know why people are saying 4x is fine, it dosent matter if his range is balanced and hes raising 4x with all his hands the sizing is just hideous. when stacks get shallower we smallen our raise, we start making it 4x and then our flop bets has to be bigger, our turn bet does and so does our river bet, this isnt how tournament poker is played, a smaller raise does the same job as a 4x and preserves ur chips at the same time.
    Posted by THEROCK573
    the reason i said i thought it was fine that i want my oponants too know im strong if there coming with me on this flop, and too get rid of alot of the hands such as Q10o  although it didnt work here right enough.

    if i or someone 3x's alot and people start too call alot more 2, 3 players miby, when i look at KK i want heads up and find a bigger raise will normally get me there rather having a few callers on a smaller raise. just my opinion tho.

    if everyone was the same what would be the point. 

    preserving chips pre at this point im not thinking about, any resistance its going in anyway  and as for a contiuation bet on the flop looks like the opo was coming anyway with most bet sizes, unless he shoved here but is a good board for KK at that moment in time anyway. so happy too go along..... until the turn.

    i do also understand where you coming from rock this is just my opinion. on the bigger raise with this type of hand.




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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited February 2014
    why would you ever want ur opponent to know ur strong??? to make him fold hands you beat??? this is backwards thinking mate.. you just gotta learn how to play big pairs post flop rather than price people out of calling cos were worried about getting outdrawn. if you are raising big pairs 4x you have to do it with all the hands you play otherwise you become easy to play against and if you are raising 4x with all hands u play are just bleeding chips away for when u dont take the pot down.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited February 2014
    The rock is right. 4x is too big, especially when stacks are <50xBB. If we're playing good poker in late stages, we're likely to be opening a lot of pots and taking them down with cbets a lot.

    We go smaller pre and it saves us loads when we have to fold to a 3b, or when it allows us to cbet smaller and have to shutdown or fold to a raise. We don't have to worry about missing value cos it's still easy to get stacks in when we're playing shallow.

    Also dunno what this thing is with everyone being scared of callers with stuff like KK... sure we don't wanna go 6way to the flop (but that's rare) but I'd choose going 3way to a flop with KK over going to it HU allllll day long. We're getting twice as much value and are stil a big favourite,.
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  • BigBlusterBigBluster
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    ... small PP's, 67s, J10o etc etc by 4x, then it's all good I suppose. 
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    The guy is under the gun. Raising 4x UTG with 67,TJ etc may be 'good' in your opinion, others would consider such advice to be less than worthless.





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  • 77Chris9177Chris91
    edited February 2014
    I can only assume people saying 4x is ok have been living in a cave since 2009 ;)
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : The guy is under the gun. Raising 4x UTG with 67,TJ etc may be 'good' in your opinion, others would consider such advice to be less than worthless.
    Posted by BigBluster
    Just like folding AA pre flop to a single all in yeah? ;)

    4x is way too much at this stage (or most stages). My point was that if he is at least 4x'ing all his hands, IE J10s, 44, K10o, then as a saving grace, he isn't giving away too much info with bet sizing and has a reasonably balanced range. But as I suggested, I bet he doesn't 4x with 33 utg. And I used the phrase ''all good I suppose'', which doesn't mean I think the play is good. Quite the opposite in fact.

    Rock has covered it nicely. As an MTT progresses, our raise sizes get smaller as the stacks get shallower. I still see people at FT (I make them occasionally) 3/4x'ing.
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited February 2014
    And if I was at a table where I knew some guy would call any raise pre flop, then raise much more than 4x ;)

    But a minraise does exactly the same job in the mid/late stages of an MTT.
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  • Chris_McChris_Mc
    edited February 2014
    as i my diary suggest im trying too impove lol.

    reading some of these comments makes alot of sense too me now, and ill try and work on my bet sizing now. thining about my stack size. 

    miby thats where im going wrong with some of my mtt play with 4x's and makes alot of sense what im reading too how i think i would or should play some of these bigger hand ranges.

    but stil think everyone has there own style of play as it there money there cards there chips.



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  • MattBatesMattBates
    edited March 2014
    If we are raising 4x to show our opponents we are strong, think about the implied odds we give our opponents.
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  • KAM99KAM99
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    If we are raising 4x to show our opponents we are strong, think about the implied odds we give our opponents.
    Posted by MattBates
    ... huh?
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  • MattBatesMattBates
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : ... huh?
    Posted by KAM99
    Probably not as clear as I thought it was. We bet big to show we are strong can mean we are not folding. If our opponent has a small pair we give them great odds to set mine as we are saying we will stack off with our big pair. Same can be said for suited connectors and any other hand that is good against a big pair. Also we are turning our hand fairly face up which isn't good!
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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : Probably not as clear as I thought it was. We bet big to show we are strong can mean we are not folding. If our opponent has a small pair we give them great odds to set mine as we are saying we will stack off with our big pair. Same can be said for suited connectors and any other hand that is good against a big pair. Also we are turning our hand fairly face up which isn't good!
    Posted by MattBates
    this happened to me last night matt in the primo, some guy who thinks hes a superstar decided to start giving out verbal after he limp re raises in level 1 and im 150bbs deep and hes 100bbs deep, i know theres a decent chance hes doing this with AA but i take a flop with 88 and spike a set and end up stacking his AA. you think theres anything wrong with my play here cos i argued for ages with him?
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  • Chris_McChris_Mc
    edited March 2014
    he wouldnt be moaning if you missed, never understood why people complain in the chat box, main reason because he is wanting a call. its his choice after that too see if his aces are good are not. 



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  • MattBatesMattBates
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : this happened to me last night matt in the primo, some guy who thinks hes a superstar decided to start giving out verbal after he limp re raises in level 1 and im 150bbs deep and hes 100bbs deep, i know theres a decent chance hes doing this with AA but i take a flop with 88 and spike a set and end up stacking his AA. you think theres anything wrong with my play here cos i argued for ages with him?
    Posted by THEROCK573
    Sounds fine, the good old limp re raise AA! Classic play!

    What exactly was his argument against your play? Apart from I am said you beat my AA?
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  • KAM99KAM99
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : this happened to me last night matt in the primo, some guy who thinks hes a superstar decided to start giving out verbal after he limp re raises in level 1 and im 150bbs deep and hes 100bbs deep, i know theres a decent chance hes doing this with AA but i take a flop with 88 and spike a set and end up stacking his AA. you think theres anything wrong with my play here cos i argued for ages with him?
    Posted by THEROCK573
    Why the heck would you argue with him? Only real fish limp/reraise preflop, as they literally turn their hand face up. Only thing you say to ones that get all pro in the chat box is to say, "You're right I suck, but I suck while holding your money. More please!" Then profit off their tilt.
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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : Sounds fine, the good old limp re raise AA! Classic play! What exactly was his argument against your play? Apart from I am said you beat my AA?
    Posted by MattBates
    his words were, " you stupid clown, you have just put 20% of ur stack in wen u know i have AA, my hands face up, learn to play donkey "

    .
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  • Chris_McChris_Mc
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : his words were, " you stupid clown, you have just put 20% of ur stack in wen u know i have AA, my hands face up, learn to play donkey " .
    Posted by THEROCK573

    lol, so what hes saying is,

    no one should call me. i have AA i want no action with my AA cause i know what im doing and how you should fold ....... unless of course u have the other AA

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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : Why the heck would you argue with him? Only real fish limp/reraise preflop, as they literally turn their hand face up. Only thing you say to ones that get all pro in the chat box is to say, "You're right I suck, but I suck while holding your money. More please!" Then profit off their tilt.
    Posted by KAM99
    because im not some shrinking violette who is gonna take s*** off some guy who thinks hes phil ivey. wasnt an argument more him ranting and me winding him up really.
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