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Disillusioned

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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : lol, so what hes saying is, no one should call me. i have AA i want no action with my AA cause i know what im doing and how you should fold ....... unless of course u have the other AA
    Posted by Chris_Mc
    basically he said i should fold because hes told me what he has by limp re raising, were still so deep though and if i hit my set im getting the lot, its not like im gonna go nuts with 88 on a 7 high board etc
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  • KAM99KAM99
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : because im not some shrinking violette who is gonna take s*** off some guy who thinks hes phil ivey. wasnt an argument more him ranting and me winding him up really.
    Posted by THEROCK573
    That is different, and exactly what I said. I don't mind at all using their ego about how the game should be played to put them  more on tilt and ship off more of their money. Long as you not defending  yourself, as that is pointless. In other words, even if you are right, why make the fish smarter? Forums aside of course.
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : his words were, " you stupid clown, you have just put 20% of ur stack in wen u know i have AA, my hands face up, learn to play donkey " .
    Posted by THEROCK573
    Well to be fair to him if you did put in 20% of your stack pre with 88 then it's a bad play since you won't flop a set enough times to make it profitable to do so. If you're putting in less than 10% of your stack pre then it's profitable to set-mine (against the correct opponents) 14% is the BE point but only if we know for absolute certain that villain has AA and we'll get his stack every time. So it's accepted as 10% to be +ev because it's rare we will know for certain that villain has AA and will go broke.

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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : Well to be fair to him if you did put in 20% of your stack pre with 88 then it's a bad play since you won't flop a set enough times to make it profitable to do so. If you're putting in less than 10% of your stack pre then it's profitable to set-mine (against the correct opponents) 14% is the BE point but only if we know for absolute certain that villain has AA and we'll get his stack every time. So it's accepted as 10% to be +ev because it's rare we will know for certain that villain has AA and will go broke.
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    hows it a bad play, who says i have to flop a set to win the hand? people limp re raise with AK and AQ, ive even seen people do it with kx hands. i stand by my play
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  • robert369robert369
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : Well to be fair to him if you did put in 20% of your stack pre with 88 then it's a bad play since you won't flop a set enough times to make it profitable to do so. If you're putting in less than 10% of your stack pre then it's profitable to set-mine (against the correct opponents) 14% is the BE point but only if we know for absolute certain that villain has AA and we'll get his stack every time. So it's accepted as 10% to be +ev because it's rare we will know for certain that villain has AA and will go broke.
    Posted by F_Ivanovic

    it was me with the AA and your explanation was my thinking exactly.

    PS  sorry for b1tching rock its your doe and the way you play is up to you!


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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : hows it a bad play, who says i have to flop a set to win the hand? people limp re raise with AK and AQ, ive even seen people do it with kx hands. i stand by my play
    Posted by THEROCK573
    Read back what you said:
    were still so deep though and if i hit my set im getting the lot, its not like im gonna go nuts with 88 on a 7 high board etc
    The bit in bold implies that you think villain must have AA/KK and that you'll get the lot post-flop. Because if he's capable of having other hands you're not guaranteed to get paid when you do hit a set. 

    Next sentance you said you're not going to go nuts on a 7 high board but what does that mean? That you'll just fold any flop you don't hit a set? Or call one street and then fold to further aggression? With 20% of your stack in pre the SPR is really small (2) and there is hardly any room for post-flop manoevarilty. A c-bet on the larger side is going to be committing and you need to really decide on the flop if your hand is good. If we assume villai is limp/re-raising with TT+ and AK. (the fact you've seen some people limp/3bet with AQ and Kx hands aswell is irrelevant unless we have reads on this player doing so - we tend to just go on avg population and most people's limp/r-r range is even stronger than this)

    But anyway vs that range we have 31.34% which doesn't change much on a random flop of 3 cards (excl A or K when our equity is even worse) This means that we're putting money in pre-flop as a 31% eq fave and then folding anyway post-flop the majority of the time or getting it in with 31% equity (which clearly isn't very good)

    Now, if you have reason to believe villain can be wider and has hands like AJ/AQ and KT+: Pre-flop we have 46.32% equity against that range. Suppose we shove and villain calls with every hand - 46.32% equity and no fold equity clearly isn't good enough. Now suppose he calls half his AQ combos and all TT+ and AK but folds the rest. That's 60 combos that villain will call with and 72 combos that he folds. So 55% of the time villain folds and we pick up about 22% (accounting roughly for blinds) of our stack. He will call though 45% of the time where we only have 31.4% equity. Meaning we lose about 37% of our stack on average. 22% gain is less than 37% loss making shoving pre-flop a bad play. EDIT: I made a mistake here because he will be folding more times than calling. But it's not by much and without calculation it would still be at least a 10% losing play.

    So our options are to call/fold. If we call then we have to navigate post-flop with an SPR of 2 and without the betting lead. If flop is 9 high and villain is c-betting all of his hands then we have 53% equity and can get it in. If it's 10 high we have 42.5% equity and getting it in becomes very marginal even if villain is c-betting every hand and J high then we have 32.75% equity and GII becomes clearly bad. Not too sure what the chances are of 9 high flops through to J high flops and higher are but I don't need to for you to see that calling is still bad. Sometimes we can get it in on the flop and it be profitable, but not by much at all. And the rest of the time we have to fold or we'll be making more mistakes post-flop by continuing.

    You can stand by your play all your like. Your a winning player so the rest of your game is obv v good but this is a leak. All of us have them and it's only by acknowledging that something in your game is a leak that you can improve and become even better.
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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : Read back what you said: The bit in bold implies that you think villain must have AA/KK and that you'll get the lot post-flop. Because if he's capable of having other hands you're not guaranteed to get paid when you do hit a set.  Next sentance you said you're not going to go nuts on a 7 high board but what does that mean? That you'll just fold any flop you don't hit a set? Or call one street and then fold to further aggression? With 20% of your stack in pre the SPR is really small (2) and there is hardly any room for post-flop manoevarilty. A c-bet on the larger side is going to be committing and you need to really decide on the flop if your hand is good. If we assume villai is limp/re-raising with TT+ and AK. (the fact you've seen some people limp/3bet with AQ and Kx hands aswell is irrelevant unless we have reads on this player doing so - we tend to just go on avg population and most people's limp/r-r range is even stronger than this) But anyway vs that range we have 31.34% which doesn't change much on a random flop of 3 cards (excl A or K when our equity is even worse) This means that we're putting money in pre-flop as a 31% eq fave and then folding anyway post-flop the majority of the time or getting it in with 31% equity (which clearly isn't very good) Now, if you have reason to believe villain can be wider and has hands like AJ/AQ and KT+: Pre-flop we have 46.32% equity against that range. Suppose we shove and villain calls with every hand - 46.32% equity and no fold equity clearly isn't good enough. Now suppose he calls half his AQ combos and all TT+ and AK but folds the rest. That's 60 combos that villain will call with and 72 combos that he folds. So 55% of the time villain folds and we pick up about 22% (accounting roughly for blinds) of our stack. He will call though 45% of the time where we only have 31.4% equity. Meaning we lose about 37% of our stack on average. 22% gain is less than 37% loss making shoving pre-flop a bad play. EDIT: I made a mistake here because he will be folding more times than calling. But it's not by much and without calculation it would still be at least a 10% losing play. So our options are to call/fold. If we call then we have to navigate post-flop with an SPR of 2 and without the betting lead. If flop is 9 high and villain is c-betting all of his hands then we have 53% equity and can get it in. If it's 10 high we have 42.5% equity and getting it in becomes very marginal even if villain is c-betting every hand and J high then we have 32.75% equity and GII becomes clearly bad. Not too sure what the chances are of 9 high flops through to J high flops and higher are but I don't need to for you to see that calling is still bad. Sometimes we can get it in on the flop and it be profitable, but not by much at all. And the rest of the time we have to fold or we'll be making more mistakes post-flop by continuing. You can stand by your play all your like. Your a winning player so the rest of your game is obv v good but this is a leak. All of us have them and it's only by acknowledging that something in your game is a leak that you can improve and become even better.
    Posted by F_Ivanovic

    ok thats well explained although a little over my head, i left school with an F in maths so its never been my strong point :-). i understand basic pot odds etc but i do well in tournamets without being this clued up on the maths side of the game so ive never really learned it properly. just say for instance he is only ever doing this with QQ,KK,AA, do i not have implied odds if i stack him every time he makes this play or is it still a losing play?

    also another part of my call was that people who limp raise premiums is a pet hate of mine so if he is doing it with AA i wanna doo them, dont know why i just doo, i get a lot of satisfaction from it, maybe a bit silly and stubborn but its just a game after all and i have more money than sence, ha

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  • robert369robert369
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : ok thats well explained although a little over my head, i left school with an F in maths so its never been my strong point :-). i understand basic pot odds etc but i do well in tournamets without being this clued up on the maths side of the game so ive never really learned it properly. just say for instance he is only ever doing this with QQ,KK,AA, do i not have implied odds if i stack him every time he makes this play or is it still a losing play? also another part of my call was that people who limp raise premiums is a pet hate of mine so if he is doing it with AA i wanna doo them, dont know why i just doo, i get a lot of satisfaction from it, maybe a bit silly and stubborn but its just a game after all and i have more money than sence, ha
    Posted by THEROCK573
    How can you possibly have implied odds in this spot!!! you are effectively calling for 2 outs 82/18%, the pot would have to offer at least 5 to 1 to be a profitable play. If there were more players in the pot then deffo see the flop, but my pot bet got rid of everyone but you :(.

    Just for the record there are only 3 hands id risk this play with AA  KK and 72off lol
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  • robert369robert369
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : hows it a bad play, who says i have to flop a set to win the hand? people limp re raise with AK and AQ, ive even seen people do it with kx hands. i stand by my play
    Posted by THEROCK573

    If you read me for AX then rather than flatting a re-ship would have been better IMO

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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : How can you possibly have implied odds in this spot!!! you are effectively calling for 2 outs 82/18%, the pot would have to offer at least 5 to 1 to be a profitable play. If there were more players in the pot then deffo see the flop, but my pot bet got rid of everyone but you :(. Just for the record there are only 3 hands id risk this play with AA  KK and 72off lol
    Posted by robert369
    like i just said maths is not my strong point thats why i asked the question, id still welcome you at my table though every day of the week, remove the lock on your stats superstar!!! and ive never played you before until this so your limp raising range could be far wider than AA,KK,QQ AND the mighty 72
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned just say for instance he is only ever doing this with QQ,KK,AA, do i not have implied odds if i stack him every time he makes this play or is it still a losing play? also another part of my call was that people who limp raise premiums is a pet hate of mine so if he is doing it with AA i wanna doo them, dont know why i just doo, i get a lot of satisfaction from it, maybe a bit silly and stubborn but its just a game after all and i have more money than sence, ha
    Posted by THEROCK573
    Well, it depends on how much you have to call in comparison to what you have left behind. We flop a set 1 in 7.5 times. So if you are putting in 300 more chips then you would need to win (300*7.5 = 2250) more chips for calling to be BE assuming villain always goes broke. But sometimes there will be a K or A on the flop and QQ/KK might not go broke. Plus there is also the possibility that we both flop a set (or we flop a set but get outdrawn by their higher set) Which is why we really need to be able to win AT LEAST 11 times the amount we have to put in to make the play BE. So if we have to put in 300 then we need to win 300*11 = 3300 more chips. So both us and opponent need that much behind.

    And fair enough :P After all poker is about enjoyment as well as winning money so if you get satisfaction from hitting a set vs someone that limp/rr it's no doubt life ev +!
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  • robert369robert369
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : like i just said maths is not my strong point thats why i asked the question, id still welcome you at my table though every day of the week, remove the lock on your stats superstar!!! and ive never played you before until this so your limp raising range could be far wider than AA,KK,QQ AND the mighty 72
    Posted by THEROCK573
    lol not half as much as i like having you on mine

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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : lol not half as much as i like having you on mine
    Posted by robert369

    why because i make one mathematical error against you? ivan has my respect as a player and is very clued up on the maths so i take on board what he said and admit ive made a mistake, you though only have mouth in the chatbox to back up ur claims about how good u are, you said ur stats are much better than mine so lets see them, take the lock off or have you something to hide? its funny how your so good yet i never see ur name in garys tournament results section thread.
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  • Jac35Jac35
    edited March 2014
    % are prob not my strong point but one % I do know with certainty is that I am 100% happy when I bust someone who's limped Aces :)
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  • robert369robert369
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : why because i make one mathematical error against you? ivan has my respect as a player and is very clued up on the maths so i take on board what he said and admit ive made a mistake, you though only have mouth in the chatbox to back up ur claims about how good u are, you said ur stats are much better than mine so lets see them, take the lock off or have you something to hide? its funny how your so good yet i never see ur name in garys tournament results section thread.
    Posted by THEROCK573
    i didnt say better than yours, i just said im a profitable player, in relation to games played return on investment
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  • robert369robert369
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    % are prob not my strong point but one % I do know with certainty is that I am 100% happy when I bust someone who's limped Aces :)
    Posted by Jac35
    sigh, just so you know! i limped under the gun with AA, button raised n rock called in bb, i then potted it up. if pot not re opened obv i proceed very cautiously
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  • robert369robert369
    edited March 2014
    just found the hand blinds 10 n 20, i limp 20  button makes it 120 rock calls in bb i pot it, button folds pot is 740 and it is 370 for rock to call. ive already put 25% of my stack in, rock has similar stack
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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : sigh, just so you know! i limped under the gun with AA, 2 callers rock raised out of the BB i then potted it up. if pot not re opened obv i proceed very cautiously
    Posted by robert369
    actually thats not correct, dosent make any difference but it was the button who iso'd you. also you did say you had better stats than me so you are just plain lying by saying otherwise, why are they hidden if you are a winning player? poker players like to brag so unless you are a heads up sit and go shark and u dont wanna scare away action i see no reason to hide these wonderfull stats you have!!!
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  • robert369robert369
    edited March 2014
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    onelegleft Small blind  10.00 10.00 3090.00
    THEROCK573 Big blind  20.00 30.00 2880.00
      Your hole cards
    • A
    • A
    		     
    robert369 Call  20.00 50.00 2092.50
    Direwolf Fold     
    foldUfairy Fold     
    GaMbL Raise  120.00 170.00 3411.25
    onelegleft Fold     
    THEROCK573 Call  100.00 270.00 2780.00
    robert369 Raise  470.00 740.00 1622.50
    GaMbL Fold     
    THEROCK573 Call  370.00 1110.00 2410.00
    Flop
       
    • 6
    • 3
    • 8
    		     
    THEROCK573 Check     
    robert369 Bet  555.00 1665.00 1067.50
    THEROCK573 All-in  2410.00 4075.00 0.00
    robert369 All-in  1067.50 5142.50 0.00
    THEROCK573 Unmatched bet  787.50 4355.00 787.50
    THEROCK573 Show
    • 8
    • 8
    		   
    robert369 Show
    • A
    • A
    		   
    Turn
       
    • 3
    		     
    River
       
    • 5
    		     
    THEROCK573 Win Full House, 8s and 3s 4355.00  5142.50
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  • robert369robert369
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned : actually thats not correct, dosent make any difference but it was the button who iso'd you. also you did say you had better stats than me so you are just plain lying by saying otherwise, why are they hidden if you are a winning player? poker players like to brag so unless you are a heads up sit and go shark and u dont wanna scare away action i see no reason to hide these wonderfull stats you have!!!
    Posted by THEROCK573
    I think we'll leave it there!!
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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance onelegleft Small blind   10.00 10.00 3090.00 THEROCK573 Big blind   20.00 30.00 2880.00   Your hole cards A A       robert369 Call   20.00 50.00 2092.50 Direwolf Fold         foldUfairy Fold         GaMbL Raise   120.00 170.00 3411.25 onelegleft Fold         THEROCK573 Call   100.00 270.00 2780.00 robert369 Raise   470.00 740.00 1622.50 GaMbL Fold         THEROCK573 Call   370.00 1110.00 2410.00 Flop     6 3 8       THEROCK573 Check         robert369 Bet   555.00 1665.00 1067.50 THEROCK573 All-in   2410.00 4075.00 0.00 robert369 All-in   1067.50 5142.50 0.00 THEROCK573 Unmatched bet   787.50 4355.00 787.50 THEROCK573 Show 8 8       robert369 Show A A       Turn     3       River     5       THEROCK573 Win Full House, 8s and 3s 4355.00   5142.50 Prev Close window Next
    Posted by robert369
    SUCH A S E X U A L MOMENT. screen shot taken on my phone!!!
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  • robert369robert369
    edited March 2014
    LOL, i suggest a visit to your GP if cracking aces makes you sexually aroused !!!!
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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    LOL, i suggest a visit to your GP if cracking aces makes you sexually aroused !!!!
    Posted by robert369
    i suggest you visit a physciatrist if having them cracked gets you so mad.
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited March 2014
    Limp raise with AA is so awful.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
    Limp raise is so awful.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
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  • GAMBLER19GAMBLER19
    edited March 2014


      Limp raise is so awful.

      well not entirely,if you have a good read of thr table,and are pretty certain that it is going to be raised by an aggro player stealing then a limp raise is fine,the guy just got unlucky 

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  • GAMBLER19GAMBLER19
    edited March 2014
      

     after reading most of the posts,of the original post,it seems to me that a lot of the players  want to play the same,surely playing poker you want to have your indiviuallity,and own style,and also a mix it aswell.if we dont it becomes a game only for bots

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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited March 2014
    In Response to Re: Disillusioned:
       Limp raise is so awful.   well not entirely,if you have a good read of thr table,and are pretty certain that it is going to be raised by an aggro player stealing then a limp raise is fine,the guy just got unlucky 
    Posted by GAMBLER19
    Don't agree with this. Limp raise is playing your cards face up basically. So even if you have some aggro guy at the table, they should/will be aware of your holding should you limp raise them. Should you just raise AA normally, who's to say Mr Aggro won't 3bet us, then giving us the leverage to 4bet and maybe get it in, or just call and let Mr Aggro hang himself....plus if Mr aggro is just on the steal, then you lose all value with the limp raise. 

    I guarantee you Rock doesn't put another chip in this pot should he not spike the 8. He knows what he's up against, and whether the maths are right or wrong (not my strong point), he knows he's getting the lot should the set fall. 

    Hand in question probably plays out the same had AA raised pre. But I'd be looking at my own play with the bullets instead of questioning others.
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