Opinions....

jordz16

Weird thing just happened in the main.... 

Im in the SB and the BB is set to away... the button who has under 10bbs min raises, I have a decent ace so shove for 35bbs knowing the BB is away, the second i shove he insta-clicks "back" and calls me with a big pair.. pretty harsh considering it was a well known reg who did it and had he not been set to away i would have just folded the hand as we were the 2 biggest stacks at the table.

Fairly obvious i lost the hand, but either way i like to think id still be writing the post..

I was pretty annoyed and did feel cheated by it, although i guess they didnt technically do anything wrong. just wanted to know if other people have done this before? or had it happen to them? is it something thats just accepted as part of online poker?

Glenelg

In Response to Opinions....:

Weird thing just happened in the main....  Im in the SB and the BB is set to away... the button who has under 10bbs min raises, I have a decent ace so shove for 35bbs knowing the BB is away, the second i shove he insta-clicks "back" and calls me with a big pair.. pretty harsh considering it was a well known reg who did it and had he not been set to away i would have just folded the hand as we were the 2 biggest stacks at the table. Fairly obvious i lost the hand, but either way i like to think id still be writing the post.. I was pretty annoyed and did feel cheated by it, although i guess they didnt technically do anything wrong. just wanted to know if other people have done this before? or had it happen to them? is it something thats just accepted as part of online poker?
Posted by jordz16

I do think reading the forum that some folk use it as an aid.  It's happened to me as well.   I always like to see the positive in folks tho.  Personally, I ALWAYS assume everyone is "IN" if you know what I mean.    I have also clicked away to answer the door/phone and come back to AA!   Kerching!  Swings & swongs?

GaryQQQ

One of the oldest tricks in the book, I've seen it multiple times.

'Fake away' goes in my notes for the player concerned whenever I see this stunt being pulled at one of my tables.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Opinions....:

One of the oldest tricks in the book, I've seen it multiple times. 'Fake away' goes in my notes for the player concerned whenever I see this stunt being pulled at one of my tables.
Posted by GaryQQQ

+ 1

jordz16

Yeah i have seen it done a couple of times, its just in this instance i was doing the guy a favour by shoving on the shorty with a very marginal hand as he was obviously blind stealing, i was in a situation where i had to shove but pretty much hated it.. if it was a complete random then it wouldnt really have bothered me, but with it being a MTT reg who i play against most nights it does leave a bitter taste. I know id never do it personally as i value respect higher than any monetary value so i do probably take it more personal when something like that happens to me,

but yeah i fully understand its just one of them things, let it go and move on!

Slipwater

To be fair, jordz... the guy could have been genuinely away (toilet, coffee, phone call, etc) and then came back to the table at the right (or wrong, for you) moment.

jordz16

In Response to Re: Opinions....:

To be fair, jordz... the guy could have been genuinely away (toilet, coffee, phone call, etc) and then came back to the table at the right (or wrong, for you) moment.
Posted by Slipwater

yeah im fully aware thats a possibility, but the maths would be that he had to have came back in the exact 1 second gap that you get between my shove and his timebar starting to run down, also at a time when he has a massive hand, and also at a time he is in the BB (the one position where you make the button/SB compelled to raise you) all them 3 factors together makes it feel like the odds on it being a genuine away scenario as very slim

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Opinions....:

Yeah i have seen it done a couple of times, its just in this instance i was doing the guy a favour by shoving on the shorty with a very marginal hand as he was obviously blind stealing, i was in a situation where i had to shove but pretty much hated it.. if it was a complete random then it wouldnt really have bothered me, but with it being a MTT reg who i play against most nights it does leave a bitter taste. I know id never do it personally as i value respect higher than any monetary value so i do probably take it more personal when something like that happens to me, but yeah i fully understand its just one of them things, let it go and move on!
Posted by jordz16

Yeah it's pretty meh for someone to do this, unless they were genuinely away but as you've said above, that's pretty unlikely, but sadly it's part of the game, and some people obv need these angles to help themselves win.

Just this bolded bit though.... come on mate lol. You aint doing anyone a favour except yourself (which is how we should play poker btw, so that's not a dig)... You've got Ax against a shorty open who has <10xBB and you ship on him, pretty standard. You aint helping out the BB at all, I'm sure he couldn't care less whether it's the BTN who steals his BB or you. Also, if the BTN had of folded, then you would (or certainly should!) have opened 100% of hands anyway.

jordz16

In Response to Re: Opinions....:

In Response to Re: Opinions.... : Yeah it's pretty meh for someone to do this, unless they were genuinely away but as you've said above, that's pretty unlikely, but sadly it's part of the game, and some people obv need these angles to help themselves win. Just this bolded bit though.... come on mate lol. You aint doing anyone a favour except yourself (which is how we should play poker btw, so that's not a dig)... You've got Ax against a shorty open who has <10xBB and you ship on him, pretty standard. You aint helping out the BB at all, I'm sure he couldn't care less whether it's the BTN who steals his BB or you. Also, if the BTN had of folded, then you would (or certainly should!) have opened 100% of hands anyway.
Posted by Lambert180

I massively disagree with that, if he wasnt set to away then i would be folding the hand? but instead im shoving a marginal hand into his monster? how is that not a huge favour? im giving him a great chance to call off 35bbs semi light. if he wasnt set to away he wouldnt ever be getting that shove as im sure i would have folded...

Lambert180

Ah ok, misunderstanding of your wording on my part, I thought you were saying you were doing the BB a favour by not letting the BTN take his BB lol, when in reality you would have just been taking it yourself instead.

jordz16

In Response to Re: Opinions....:

Ah ok, misunderstanding of your wording on my part, I thought you were saying you were doing the BB a favour by not letting the BTN take his BB lol, when in reality you would have just been taking it yourself instead.
Posted by Lambert180

yeah i get where you are coming from mate, but nah that wasnt what i meant..

day4eire76

In Response to Re: Opinions....:

Yeah i have seen it done a couple of times, its just in this instance i was doing the guy a favour by shoving on the shorty with a very marginal hand as he was obviously blind stealing, i was in a situation where i had to shove but pretty much hated it.. if it was a complete random then it wouldnt really have bothered me, but with it being a MTT reg who i play against most nights it does leave a bitter taste. I know id never do it personally as i value respect higher than any monetary value so i do probably take it more personal when something like that happens to me, but yeah i fully understand its just one of them things, let it go and move on!
Posted by jordz16

The bolded bit.

How are you doing this guy a favour ?

jordz16

In Response to Re: Opinions....:

In Response to Re: Opinions.... : The bolded bit. How are you doing this guy a favour ?
Posted by day4eire76

by shoving 35 bigs with a marginal hand, and allowing the away player to call it off light knowing i think that he is away.

day4eire76

Your not doing the bb a favour your getting your chips in good v button

day4eire76

BTW I think if the "away player " was using this as a tactic its bad etiquette .

But drop the favour bit you did to the button what the bb did to you.

Hand caught in the cookie jar.

jordz16

In Response to Re: Opinions....:

Your not doing the bb a favour your getting your chips in good v button
Posted by day4eire76

i dont think you quite understand, the big blind wasnt away, he was hoping for action so he could click "back"  had he not been set as away i wouldnt even be playing the hand talk about shoving 35bbs in with it. i did the guy a huge favour in terms of the tournament by playing straight into what he wanted, i just felt the way he went about it was very disrespectful and dishonest

IDONKCALLU

oldest trick in the book  a reg i know who i played alot does this alot notes taken i just think he is in its very harsh but there is no rule is there 

day4eire76

In Response to Re: Opinions....:

In Response to Re: Opinions.... : i dont think you quite understand, the big blind wasnt away, he was hoping for action so he could click "back"  had he not been set as away i wouldnt even be playing the hand talk about shoving 35bbs in with it. i did the guy a huge favour in terms of the tournament by playing straight into what he wanted, i just felt the way he went about it was very disrespectful and dishonest
Posted by jordz16

I understand it fine .

On the face of it you got done by the away player if he was only pretending to be away.

Its the favour bit im having a problem with.

In terms of the tournament we all could say we did someone a favour by paying off when we hit TPTK v bottem set for example.

Favour 

an act performed out of good will, generosity, or mercy.

If they are a reg hopefully you will get a chance for revenge.

I agree with your take on the "away" player but not I did him a favour bit.

F_Ivanovic

Personally I do not think this 'tactic' is +ev and am not too bothered by it. It means they're forced to pass up on +ev situations (like BTN steal, defending BB to min-r with nut-making hand to name just a couple) - if they play these hands then suddenly go away again it's clear to anyone at the table what they're doing which means the only way to do this is to fold constantly - even then, you've got to hope your big hand comes when you are in the BB or SB.... if it comes when you have BTN or even worse an earlier position then the tactic is useless.

Also, an easy way to counter-act the possibility of this occuring is not to go AI but to just isolate the shorty. So in this instance when BTN min-opens with under? 10bbs just to click it back (or slightly more) - BTN has to shove or fold and if he just flats then it's worse for them than us because we have less than PSB OTF and it's going to be profitable for us to pretty much jam any flop - and villain can easily end up making a mistake greater than that had he folded or shipped pre. If you don't want him to flat at all then just make it big like 3x 3bet where he's forced to ship. Even with 6bb we can then comfortably get away if BB happens to wake up with a big hand.

I know of at least a few occasions I can remember where I've been sat out and come back to find AA or KK when in BB. It's not that unlikely in the grand scheme of unlikeliness!! A royal flush is massive odds against but I've been dealt a fair few. 

TheDart

Opinions and favors aside, can SKY not resolve this scenario happening by ensuring players can't rejoin tables once the cards have been dealt?

So if cards are dealt you are away, your cards should be automatically mucked.

You click the 'I'm back' button, and you should not be able to 'sit back' at a table mid hand or mid action, you should get the message that you will rejoin the table for the next hand.

Phantom66

+1 Ivanovic post on both counts.

Although generally agree its poor etiquette by bb but they have to get v lucky to capitalise and miss alot of value while "away".

Also no need to shove if bb is away can just raise to put btn shortie all in

The allin is more like a play you would make if bb is sat ie a resteal or isolating play that does not want a call from bb but will take one from shortie.

Sir-Gary

I think you will find that if you are set to "AWAY" that your hand is folded pretty much instantly when it is your turn to play. Therefore they would have to click "back" pretty much a fraction of a second before you yourself bet. How are they supposed to know this?, this would run the risk of their AA being folded if they got it wrong. You were caught with your hand in the cookie jar, sorry unlucky. Why do we always assume the worst in people and we ourseleves are automatically blameless. As we cannot possibly know what is going on in their house let us have another guess(probably unlikely too).

He is palying when he heres a scream and goes running off to find his 5 year old daughter with a broken leg it is an open fracture and the bone is sticking out she is screaming and his wife is sobbing, and understandably panicking, You convince her to call for an ambulance, and while you are waiting the phone rings, your wife answers and she tells you that your parents have had an house fire, your Father has died and your mother is in intensive care. The ambulance comes and you are about to go with them when your wife says no play the poker we are massively in debt you need to win our house wiill be repossessed and we will be homeless for xmas if you don't. So you go back only to find some b****** is trying to take advantage of your problems and steal your big big blind.

Incidently why are you raising instead of calling? If the BB is away they fold anyway.

DOHHHHHHH

It's annoying but at least he played his hand properly in the end which is more than can be said for some people.  

I've seen lots of players in dyms sit away for the whole game giving them an unfair advantage on others who are playing properly.

------

out of interest how strong was his hand? It'd probably need to be QQ+?

hhyftrftdr

Think 3bet jamming is pretty standard instead of 'normal' 3betting in this scenario. (calling would be terrible Gary!) We are essentially last to act. Shame we've been angle shot by the BB, snide tactic indeed.

Ul Jordan.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: Opinions....:

Think 3bet jamming is pretty standard instead of 'normal' 3betting in this scenario. (calling would be terrible Gary!) We are essentially last to act. Shame we've been angle shot by the BB, snide tactic indeed. Ul Jordan.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

I don't follow - how can 3bet jamming be standard? What advantage do we gain by shipping as opposed to a normal 3-bet? Seems they gain similar ev vs the BTN but one loses massively if BB happens to wake up with a hand.

As for the suggestion of automatically folding your hand when away (even before your turn to act) - I think this would be fine if the sky software worked well. As is, I can see this annoying a lot of people.

Enut

Surely reraising to put the other player all in (10BB) is preferable, then in the event that BB 'wakes up' and goes all in we can fold and still have a playable 25BB stack. I can't see how this doesn't achieve what we want without any down side.

As to whether the 'sit out' is deliberate or not I would give the benefit of the doubt but make a note 'Sits out to trap?' If I see him do it again then I remove the question mark and put it in capaital letters. 

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Opinions....:

In Response to Re: Opinions.... : I don't follow - how can 3bet jamming be standard? What advantage do we gain by shipping as opposed to a normal 3-bet? Seems they gain similar ev vs the BTN but one loses massively if BB happens to wake up with a hand. As for the suggestion of automatically folding your hand when away (even before your turn to act) - I think this would be fine if the sky software worked well. As is, I can see this annoying a lot of people.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Obviously not shipping if BB is at his seat!

jordz16

In Response to Re: Opinions....:

Surely reraising to put the other player all in (10BB) is preferable, then in the event that BB 'wakes up' and goes all in we can fold and still have a playable 25BB stack. I can't see how this doesn't achieve what we want without any down side. As to whether the 'sit out' is deliberate or not I would give the benefit of the doubt but make a note 'Sits out to trap?' If I see him do it again then I remove the question mark and put it in capaital letters. 
Posted by Enut

in hindsight i would have just been reraising enough to commit him, but when you are playing lots of tables and you have an away player next to you i think most players would just be hitting the all in button... 

tomgoodun

I may be reading this all wrong but it comes across to me like the button has raised, your thinking goes summat like " he's stealing away bb ,I've got a decent ace so I'll steal it" you make the mistake of shipping when you could've clicked back,irrespective of how many tables your playing,then the bb comes back ( could be genuine,could be tactical,but that is not the issue) and catches you with your hand firmly in the cookie jar., as a fairly average rec player I think in your case you should be thinking,what if the bb returns.? Do you want a call or not,if not don't ship.i am surprised  you seem to be pointing the finger at the bb as this is not the first time this has happened nor will it be the last,I would go so far as to suggest that this tactic may be employed by some who are pretty sick of people stealing their blinds when they have had connection issues in the past, bit of karma perhaps... 

hhyftrftdr

Tom, I don't think Jordz is that bothered about trying to resteal the away BB! More a case of someone raising from a sub 10bb stack and Jordan sticking his stack in in the belief the BB isn't there to throw any spanners in the works and putting the short stack all in for his tournament life.

Out of interest Jordan, how long had the guy been away for? Just that hand? Orbit? Longer?

jordz16

In Response to Re: Opinions....:

I may be reading this all wrong but it comes across to me like the button has raised, your thinking goes summat like " he's stealing away bb ,I've got a decent ace so I'll steal it" you make the mistake of shipping when you could've clicked back,irrespective of how many tables your playing,then the bb comes back ( could be genuine,could be tactical,but that is not the issue) and catches you with your hand firmly in the cookie jar., as a fairly average rec player I think in your case you should be thinking,what if the bb returns.? Do you want a call or not,if not don't ship.i am surprised  you seem to be pointing the finger at the bb as this is not the first time this has happened nor will it be the last,I would go so far as to suggest that this tactic may be employed by some who are pretty sick of people stealing their blinds when they have had connection issues in the past, bit of karma perhaps... 
Posted by tomgoodun

lol i dont know where to start with this! all details are in the original post, i just wanted a few opinions and to see what people thought about the situation.. i shoved because i believed only 2 people were in the hand and that my hand was strong enough to shove on a 10 bb stack, im not trying to steal or resteal because if we had both been sitting with 35bbs i would have probably folded or maybe flatted even with the bb away... all im asking is for peoples opinions on whether deliberately sitting out in the bb when you have a big hand to guarantee some action