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Really any point?

edited January 2015 in Tournament Strategy

Not especially a bad beat post, or a rigged post, but going round in circles with poker makes me always question the point.

You play great get a little ahead, few bad beats back to even.

Rinse and repeat over 100 games.

Do it all again next 100 games - time is precious. Is Poker as precious?

Really fecked off with bothering.
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Comments

  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Really any point?:
    Not especially a bad beat post, or a rigged post, but going round in circles with poker makes me always question the point. You play great get a little ahead, few bad beats back to even. Rinse and repeat over 100 games. Do it all again next 100 games - time is precious. Is Poker as precious? Really fecked off with bothering.
    Posted by swanstu

    Before this is said to be a beat post, it isn't, it's about the lack of edge in tournaments, from what seems to be large samples.

    Actually, noob error, should have really been under the SnG section, as that's mostly what I meant - though it also refers to my experiences of MTT play too....

  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Really any point? : Before this is said to be a beat post, it isn't, it's about the lack of edge in tournaments, from what seems to be large samples. Actually, noob error, should have really been under the SnG section, as that's mostly what I meant - though it also refers to my experiences of MTT play too....
    Posted by swanstu
    I find exactly the same swanstu..   gring all day to get £10 up.. and then you get card dead or suffer bad beats until you're back to even again..

    Happens in cash games too...

    There is a theory that it is all designed to generate rake..  no one wins a huge amount.. and no one loses a huge amount...  but while we play, everyone loses rake..

    Is the software clever enough to script this?  I guess we will never know.......
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : I find exactly the same swanstu..   gring all day to get £10 up.. and then you get card dead or suffer bad beats until you're back to even again.. Happens in cash games too... There is a theory that it is all designed to generate rake..  no one wins a huge amount.. and no one loses a huge amount...  but while we play, everyone loses rake.. Is the software clever enough to script this?  I guess we will never know.......
    Posted by JimRiddle7
    if u think its dodgy why u keep playing hmmmm
  • edited December 2014
    Unless your a winning poker player (and even then) you should still be playing poker for the enjoyment first and foremost. People play casino games and betting where the house always edge has on them so over time they will lose money. But they continue to play these games because they get enjoyment out of them. The same is true at poker - the rake gives sky a profit so they can enable us to play but poker is a skill based game so if your good enough over time you should beat the rake. If not and you break even, well then that's just as good - sure, if you are devoting too much time to it then it might seem like a waste of time but if you are playing it recreationally like anything else you might do recreationally for fun then it doesn't matter if you don't make money if you get enjoyment out of it!
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    Unless your a winning poker player (and even then) you should still be playing poker for the enjoyment first and foremost. People play casino games and betting where the house always edge has on them so over time they will lose money. But they continue to play these games because they get enjoyment out of them. The same is true at poker - the rake gives sky a profit so they can enable us to play but poker is a skill based game so if your good enough over time you should beat the rake. If not and you break even, well then that's just as good - sure, if you are devoting too much time to it then it might seem like a waste of time but if you are playing it recreationally like anything else you might do recreationally for fun then it doesn't matter if you don't make money if you get enjoyment out of it!
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    Yep, but i dont think many people play poker recreationally.. ie top up £50 per month with the expectation of losing it.

    The whole idea for me is to increase your bankroll..

    I do enjoy learning about poker.. playing poker, and reading tips from yourself.. but there really is no point unless your bankroll increases..




  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : Yep, but i dont think many people play poker recreationally.. ie top up £50 per month with the expectation of losing it. The whole idea for me is to increase your bankroll.. I do enjoy learning about poker.. playing poker, and reading tips from yourself.. but there really is no point unless your bankroll increases..
    Posted by JimRiddle7
    The VAST majority do - that is a statistical, proven, fact.

    It's - to them - a fun hobby, which costs them a little money, in the same way that drinking, crown-green bowling, fishing & pylon-spotting are recreations which cost money.
     
    People WANT to increase their bankroll, yes, of course, that's what poker does, it gives us hope, expectation, optimism, & a buzz. In reality though it is simply a recreation to the vast majority. I'd say 90% play it recreationally.  
     
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Really any point? : Before this is said to be a beat post, it isn't, it's about the lack of edge in tournaments, from what seems to be large samples. Actually, noob error, should have really been under the SnG section, as that's mostly what I meant - though it also refers to my experiences of MTT play too....
    Posted by swanstu
    Hi Swanny,
     
    For most of us, no, we don't have an edge over large samples. But for those who are good enough, there IS an edge (proven) over a large sample.
     
    Have a look at the thread I am going to link you to.

    It analyses every KPI of MTT's over large samples. 1 year, 3 years, even 5 years.

    It concludes with a sample size of 93,914 different players over 10,750 MTT's. That seems a reasonable sample size to me.

    If you peruse it, you will see something very interesting - the SAME names keep cropping up, whether we look at the 1 month, 1 year, or 5 year sample size.

    Because they have an edge.

    The thread is
    HERE
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Really any point? : Before this is said to be a beat post, it isn't, it's about the lack of edge in tournaments, from what seems to be large samples. Actually, noob error, should have really been under the SnG section, as that's mostly what I meant - though it also refers to my experiences of MTT play too....
    Posted by swanstu
    SNG's?

    Same thing applies.

    There ARE players with an edge, who, somehow, keep getting it done.

    Because they have an edge.

    They get the same distribution of cards, hands & opponents as you & me. They just manage to play them better.
     
    Go to Sharkscope, & the "SNG" Dropdown, & look at these 5 players. There are hundreds like this, I just chose these 5 because I happen to know all of them. (and a good bit of their profit comes from me, lol.....).  
     
    Nutter5932

    hotwheals

    macacgirl1

    Jac35

    EvilPingu

    Between those 5, they have AVERAGED 20,000 SNG's each for a combined profit of some £80,000. Their graphs show the story, really.

    It's a painful truth for us mere mortals, but we must not fool ourselves - there IS an edge if we are good enough.
     
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : if u think its dodgy why u keep playing hmmmm
    Posted by reeler
    Not sure if this was directed to my post or riddle's one, but one answer is fairly simple - addiction. Not pretty but true.
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : SNG's? Same thing applies. There ARE players with an edge, who, somehow, keep getting it done. Because they have an edge. They get the same distribution of cards, hands & opponents as you & me. They just manage to play them better.   Go to Sharkscope, & the "SNG" Dropdown, & look at these 5 players. There are hundreds like this, I just chose these 5 because I happen to know all of them. (and a good bit of their profit comes from me, lol.....).     Nutter5932 hotwheals macacgirl1 Jac35 EvilPingu Between those 5, they have AVERAGED 20,000 SNG's each for a combined profit of some £80,000. Their graphs show the story, really. It's a painful truth for us mere mortals, but we must not fool ourselves - there IS an edge if we are good enough.  
    Posted by Tikay10

    If we accept we are mere mortals why do we keep playing is a good question indeed - to improve? So if that doesn't happen? You suggest you yourself lose at the game, so acknowledge this doesn't happen? I applaud your honesty in saying that, so why do you play?

  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : SNG's? Same thing applies. There ARE players with an edge, who, somehow, keep getting it done. Because they have an edge. They get the same distribution of cards, hands & opponents as you & me. They just manage to play them better.   Go to Sharkscope, & the "SNG" Dropdown, & look at these 5 players. There are hundreds like this, I just chose these 5 because I happen to know all of them. (and a good bit of their profit comes from me, lol.....).     Nutter5932 hotwheals macacgirl1 Jac35 EvilPingu Between those 5, they have AVERAGED 20,000 SNG's each for a combined profit of some £80,000. Their graphs show the story, really. It's a painful truth for us mere mortals, but we must not fool ourselves - there IS an edge if we are good enough.  
    Posted by Tikay10
    hmmmm, these players have an edge..?

    well i cant speak for all of them, but i recognise two who's "edge" is to fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, now i have an ace ALL IN........

    Obviously this braindead and boring style works for them, and they know that sky will always drop an ace on the board, so they're quids in with little effort..

    Maybe we should all play like this and remove the skill edge completely..

  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : If we accept we are mere mortals why do we keep playing is a good question indeed - to improve? So if that doesn't happen? You suggest you yourself lose at the game, so acknowledge this doesn't happen? I applaud your honesty in saying that, so why do you play?
    Posted by swanstu
    I play poker because I enjoy it, the challenge & the fun.

    I don't lose money, & I don't make much, either.

    In the last year, I've made around £1,300 (I have a "Challenge Thread" in Poker Chat where I took £200 to it's current £1,452.17).
     
    I've not deposited in about 6 years, that I recall. Lifetime on Sky Poker I'm about break even, including cash games.

    I try to improve all the time, & I change games & formats about once a year, to try & stay competitive. I gave up NLH about 2 years ago, as I could no longer beat it.   

    I just play because I love the game, & the people who I play with. I don't even withdraw the winnings. Money is only a part of it - I relish the challenge. As someone who is well past it, & in my late sixties, I love pitting my wits against the youngsters. They usually get me in the end, though......

    I just love spending an evening playing low-ball poker with nice people, really. There are worse ways to spend an evening - watching TV, for example.  
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : I play poker because I enjoy it, the challenge & the fun. I don't lose money, & I don't make much, either. In the last year, I've made around £1,300 (I have a "Challenge Thread" in Poker Chat where I took £200 to it's current £1,452.17).   I've not deposited in about 6 years, that I recall. Lifetime on Sky Poker I'm about break even, including cash games. I try to improve all the time, & I change games & formats about once a year, to try & stay competitive. I gave up NLH about 2 years ago, as I could no longer beat it.    I just play because I love the game, & the people who I play with. I don't even withdraw the winnings. Money is only a part of it - I relish the challenge. As someone who is well past it, & in my late sixties, I love pitting my wits against the youngsters. They usually get me in the end, though...... I just love spending an evening playing low-ball poker with nice people, really. There are worse ways to spend an evening - watching TV, for example.  
    Posted by Tikay10
    Hmmmm, i thought you were a pro..?  were'nt you employed by Sky..  with your own exclusive avatar..?
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : Hmmmm, i thought you were a pro..?  were'nt you employed by Sky..  with your own exclusive avatar..?
    Posted by JimRiddle7
    I was a Live Tourney Poker Pro from 2003 to 2005.

    I've never described myself as a Pro since.
     
    I was never employed by Sky Poker as a "Pro".

    I was an Ambassador with Sporting Bet & Wm Hill between 2003 & 2005, & Chairman & Co-Founder of APAT for 6 years, where the whole idea was to help & encourage recretional players, & get them a better deal.   

    I could not make a living at poker. I'm still a profitable player "Live", or have been the last 4 years. All my results are visible to all on the various databases.
     
    I don't have an exclusive Avatar when playing on the site, I don't even have an Avatar, just the plain "default".

    Much of my role at Sky Poker is to help newbies & inexperienced players. I rarely chest thump, but I do that very well. I also help design, formulate & help run the UKPC Events, & prior to that SPT Events. I also try to be a bridge between the Business & the Players as to various matters on the Community.   

    Beyond newbies & inexperienced players, I rarely dispense advice, unless answering a specific question, as I don't have the ability, & have never claimed to.

    I have never ever described myself as a Pro.
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : I was a Live Tourney Poker Pro from 2003 to 2005. I've never described myself as a Pro since.   I was never employed by Sky Poker as a "Pro". I was an Ambassador with Sporting Bet & Wm Hill between 2003 & 2005, & Chairman & Co-Founder of APAT for 6 years, where the whole idea was to help & encourage recretional players, & get them a better deal.    I could not make a living at poker. I'm still a profitable player "Live", or have been the last 4 years. All my results are visible to all on the various databases.   I don't have an exclusive Avatar when playing on the site, I don't even have an Avatar, just the plain "default". Much of my role at Sky Poker is to help newbies & inexperienced players. I rarely chest thump, but I do that very well. I also help design, formulate & help run the UKPC Events, & prior to that SPT Events. I also try to be a bridge between the Business & the Players as to various matters on the Community.    Beyond newbies & inexperienced players, I rarely dispense advice, unless answering a specific question, as I don't have the ability, & have never claimed to. I have never ever described myself as a Pro.
    Posted by Tikay10
    Yes, i remember seeing your exclusive avatar..

    but i'm begining to wonder if the advise on here is impartial, or to keep newbies playing..

    Phil Galfond said in his seminar that AA 3 9 unsuited is not a great hand in PLO, but he RARELY ever folds it..

    best to call a small raise and see a cheap flop...
  • edited December 2014
    I feel there is an edge in MTTs and in fact in most games. To get this edge and keep this edge you need to work a lot at your game which is something most just don't do. There is however no hiding from the fact that if there are winning players there need to be losing players. The poker sites are there to make money so rake means that it makes it harder to fall into the winning category. The fact that you can win money from poker doesn't mean its the only reason you play it. Some people use their entertainment money on poker rather than go to the pub or cinema or whatever else they might do with it. So as long as they have had an appropriate amount of enjoyment for their money then they are happy even if they have lost money and on some occasions they may win a tournament/have a profitable cash session etc and then they have in fact been paid for their enjoyment. I find a lot of people underestimate the amount of work required to make a lot of money from poker.
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : hmmmm, these players have an edge..? well i cant speak for all of them, but i recognise two who's "edge" is to fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, now i have an ace ALL IN........ Obviously this braindead and boring style works for them, and they know that sky will always drop an ace on the board, so they're quids in with little effort.. Maybe we should all play like this and remove the skill edge completely..
    Posted by JimRiddle7
    I assume your talking about DYM's. If they have a formula that works for them then let them play that way if you have another way of playing which means you can use your skill edge to make more money than them then do this. DYMs are not a deep structured form of the game and tend to resolve around push/fold ranges and I don't find it particularly interesting so maybe your like me and will find another form more entertaining and you can use your skill edge in that game.

    I do find the bold part is consistent with those who prefer to blame the RNG as opposed to look at their own game and understand odds of different hands/push/fold ranges etc so I would probably look at your own game before going down that route.
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : I assume your talking about DYM's. If they have a formula that works for them then let them play that way if you have another way of playing which means you can use your skill edge to make more money than them then do this. DYMs are not a deep structured form of the game and tend to resolve around push/fold ranges and I don't find it particularly interesting so maybe your like me and will find another form more entertaining and you can use your skill edge in that game. I do find the bold part is consistent with those who prefer to blame the RNG as opposed to look at their own game and understand odds of different hands/push/fold ranges etc so I would probably look at your own game before going down that route.
    Posted by MattBates
    well said
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : hmmmm, these players have an edge..? well i cant speak for all of them, but i recognise two who's "edge" is to fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, now i have an ace ALL IN........ Obviously this braindead and boring style works for them, and they know that sky will always drop an ace on the board, so they're quids in with little effort.. Maybe we should all play like this and remove the skill edge completely..
    Posted by JimRiddle7
    Incredibly ignorant post!!!
  • edited December 2014
    time jimriddle just went elswhere
  • edited December 2014
    There's quite a lot I dislike about some poker players in general, but the thing I dislike the most are ignorant, hypocritical poker players. Jimmy, I dont mean to be rude but I've read quite a few threads/posts by you these last few days and you make my head hurt with your ramblings. You have moaned about standard run outs etc. You think the site is a rake generator when the truth is they'll make their rake regardless. You are nothing but negative about the site and players yet still carry on playing those same players on the same site. 

    The icing on the cake for me was your reply about dym (long term winners) fold fold folding then shoving with AA. Maybe if you worked on your game a little and develop a strategy for said games you'll change your tune.

    ps: I'm not an employee of Sky and I dont have a fancy avatar and would say I'm very impartial.
  • edited December 2014

    Come to conclusion - playing too many formats that are heavily luck based causes this problem.

    Today had AA beaten all in by K6, then 1010 beaten all in by 82 offsuit. You can't keep any edge with those.

    Too many all ins, too much luck is the simple truth for keeping an edge. Unfortunately many formats I play lead to all in situations, you can't turn them down can you?
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    Come to conclusion - playing too many formats that are heavily luck based causes this problem. Today had AA beaten all in by K6, then 1010 beaten all in by 82 offsuit. You can't keep any edge with those. Too many all ins, too much luck is the simple truth for keeping an edge. Unfortunately many formats I play lead to all in situations, you can't turn them down can you?
    Posted by swanstu
    I don't really understand the bolded part, what games are you playing? Do you fully understand the odds and pot odds of situations?
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : I don't really understand the bolded part, what games are you playing? Do you fully understand the odds and pot odds of situations?
    Posted by MattBates
    Swanstu is correct..

    sky have breeded a community of all in players.. there is no skill on this site..

    your luck is pre-determined by the software..

    in my transition to playing on other sites.. i have realised that when i 4 bet with my 99..  they FOLD K 6....
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : Swanstu is correct.. sky have breeded a community of all in players.. there is no skill on this site.. your luck is pre-determined by the software.. in my transition to playing on other sites.. i have realised that when i 4 bet with my 99..  they FOLD K 6....
    Posted by JimRiddle7
    Boom! Pretty lucky the software likes me!
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : Swanstu is correct.. sky have breeded a community of all in players.. there is no skill on this site.. your luck is pre-determined by the software.. in my transition to playing on other sites.. i have realised that when i 4 bet with my 99..  they FOLD K 6....
    Posted by JimRiddle7
    Why would you want K6 to fold when you have 99?
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : Why would you want K6 to fold when you have 99?
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    errr, because he knows da river innit!
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : errr, because he knows da river innit!
    Posted by MattBates
    Doh, silly me, my bad.
  • edited December 2014
    Jimmy always knows the river jimmy knows all
  • edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: Really any point?:
    In Response to Re: Really any point? : I don't really understand the bolded part, what games are you playing? Do you fully understand the odds and pot odds of situations?
    Posted by MattBates
    Not really sure why it's difficult to understand my comment?
    Some formats lead to higher effects of luck in Poker.

    More shoves all in, etc?
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