Is this a call or fold with the 88?

waller02

DYM

I'm not involved in the hand but I was discussing it with the player with 88 and we were both unsure about whether or not it was a call. He perhaps thought he should have folded and I was leaning towards the call.......we both thought it was close! Is this close? Is it a fold or a call??

I'm asking because I'm starting to play a few dyms again this month and spots like these are quite common. If this is a fold then what hands should we be calling with and vice versa. BTW my stack is 2.3k ish iirc

rekop1	Small blind		150.00	150.00	5227.50
a	Big blind		300.00	450.00	2300.00
	Your hole cards	3 9
waller02	Fold
b	All-in		1480.00	1930.00	0.00
rekop1	Fold
a	Call		1180.00	3110.00	1120.00
a	Show	8 8
b	Show	9 A
Flop
		3 10 7
Turn
		K
River
		10
b	Win	Flush to the Ace	3110.00		3110.00

stuarty117

Hi Waller

The reason why i would call is that this was my chance to cash.

I still have 1100 behind so this is what i call a semi gamble, You can still shove 1100 and get a double up and still cash

Also player B is getting desperate and could be shoving anything at all, even a smaller PP. It is tight. But blinds getting quite high and sometimes gotta go with it. Also notes help

Also blinds very high so may not get a better chance to cash.

I wonder who Player A is he looks a handsome chap.

F_Ivanovic

I don't play DYM's much at all but yeah I would call here pretty quickly with the 88 unless I had some read that player b was really tight (where we might be up against a range of 77+, A8+, KQ+) - vs that 88 has 42%. But most players are shoving smaller pairs too as well as QJ, KT+

waller02

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

Hi Waller The reason why i would call is that this was my chance to cash. I still have 1100 behind so this is what i call a semi gamble, You can still shove 1100 and get a double up and still cash Also player B is getting desperate and could be shoving anything at all, even a smaller PP. It is tight. But blinds getting quite high and sometimes gotta go with it. Also notes help Also blinds very high so may not get a better chance to cash. I wonder who Player A is he looks a handsome chap.
Posted by stuarty117

So you're saying the opposite to what you said in game :P You did say you should have folded but I guess that was being results orientated at the time.

I was unsure but leaning towards the call, I just get these spots a lot and call and lose but I guess you gotta gamble here.

I posted the hand because most of the time these are the decisions that win or lose the dym and I often make the wrong decision lol

stuarty117

Hi Waller

Yea at the time i said it was very tight and perhaps wrong. 

I had a chat to one of the best DYM players on here. I was shortie around 1600 left and had 77 small blind shove and i snap called. He said maybe it was incorrect because i was probably flipping. SB had JQ and hit a J of something.

I still think its tight but sometimes you have to

Looking back now i think it was correct as i still had 1100 behind so it gave me a 2nd chance

And i still cashed

waller02

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

Hi Waller Yea at the time i said it was very tight and perhaps wrong.  I had a chat to one of the best DYM players on here. I was shortie around 1600 left and had 77 small blind shove and i snap called. He said maybe it was incorrect because i was probably flipping. SB had JQ and hit a J of something. I still think its tight but sometimes you have to Looking back now i think it was correct as i still had 1100 behind so it gave me a 2nd chance And i still cashed
Posted by stuarty117

I agree mate......Given the stack sizes I guess it's one of those times you hate the call but have to make it.

devonfish5

I think the call is fine with 1100 chips left to play with.

always take any chance to knock out players on the bubble when you can.

i've made the mistake of not calling in similar spots to this & regretted it.

yes we are probably flipping but player b could have almost any 2 cards.

even if we only win 50% here we still can recover from 1100 chips & cash as player a did

so i think it's a deffo call, especially at the higher £5 level where it gets even looser on the bubble with players going all-in i mean.

you could call here with 22 even kq kj q 10 i think as you are never that far behind with almost any 2 maybe even in front

if we didn't have the 1100 chips left to play with, it's a fold i think with 88 

better to find a better spot being the aggressor ourself giving us 2 chances 2 win

nb; I've learnt that in bubble play,(especially since moving up to the £5 level),  it doesn't matter so much about the cards but it's all about aggression & where & when to use it.

when we get it in good we don't win all the time

when we get it in bad we don't lose all the time

so never be afraid to get it in first giving us those 2 chances of winning...

players fold much more than they call, & with good reason..they don't want to lose.

devonfish5

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88? : I agree mate......Given the stack sizes I guess it's one of those times you hate the call but have to make it.
Posted by waller02

I never hate a call to knock someone out this is our chance to cash...

given the stack sizes it makes sense to call, imo.

we play to make as many bubbles as we can with a playable stack, then we have to strike at every chance we get, like we have here.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

I think the call is fine with 1100 chips left to play with. always take any chance to knock out players on the bubble when you can. i've made the mistake of not calling in similar spots to this & regretted it. yes we are probably flipping but player b could have almost any 2 cards. even if we only win 50% here we still can recover from 1100 chips & cash as player a did so i think it's a deffo call, especially at the higher £5 level where it gets even looser on the bubble with players going all-in i mean. you could call here with 22 even kq kj q 10 i think as you are never that far behind with almost any 2 maybe even in front if we didn't have the 1100 chips left to play with, it's a fold i think with 88  better to find a better spot being the aggressor ourself giving us 2 chances 2 win nb; I've learnt that in bubble play,(especially since moving up to the £5 level),  it doesn't matter so much about the cards but it's all about aggression & where & when to use it. when we get it in good we don't win all the time when we get it in bad we don't lose all the time so never be afraid to get it in first giving us those 2 chances of winning... players fold much more than they call, which is 1/2 the battle of winning.
Posted by devonfish5

22 is a snap fold in this spot no?

devonfish5

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88? : 22 is a snap fold in this spot no?
Posted by hhyftrftdr

22 is the same as 88 if we are putting player on any 2 cards, so makes very little difference

the only hands we beat with 88 compared to 22 are 22-77, 6 hands, & it's much more likely opponent doesn't have any of these 6 than he does.

we are essentially gambling that player has 2 overs to our pair... either way.

this is an example of why the bubble is so complex & yet so simple at the same time, & a part of the game that many players struggle with.

if you are prepared to call here with 88 then why not call with 22 is what I am saying.

would I? it's 50/50 & player dependant & comes down to my notes, as always, but let's put it this way...I've made worse calls, ha ha

it also gives some balance & unpredictability to your game by making these calls/plays, certainly every now & again & shows you don't always fold in these spots, which puts uncertainty into your opponents minds hopefully, which I think is a good thing, & again all adds to your game when playing what is arguably the most important part of the game..the bubble, & where we need to find as many small edges as possible over our opponents.

TeddyBloat

88 dominates A2-A8, K2-K8, Q2-Q8, J2, J8, T2-T8,, 92-98, 8x, all 7x, 6x, 4x, 5x, 3x, 2x and 22-77.

22 dominates only 2x. 

And 22 is not a  favorite against off-suit one gappers like 97o, or suited 4 gappers like 95s and is only a 51% fave v off suit 3 gappers like 96o

Suited one gappers like 97s are decent  faves v 22 and suited connectors like 67s are big faves v 22.

Saying 22 is the same  as 88 isnt true.its not close

22 v ATC has 50% equity

88 v ATC has 70% equity.

For the reasons mentioned above. 

devonfish5

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

88 dominates A2-A8, K2-K8, Q2-Q8, J2, J8, T2-T8,, 92-98, 8x, all 7x, 6x, 4x, 5x, 3x, 2x and 22-77. 22 dominates only 2x.  And 22 is not a  favorite against off-suit one gappers like 97o, or suited 4 gappers like 95s and is only a 51% fave v off suit 3 gappers like 96o Suited one gappers like 97s are decent  faves v 22 and suited connectors like 67s are big faves v 22. Saying 22 is the same  as 88 isnt true.its not close 22 v ATC has 50% equity 88 v ATC has 70% equity. For the reasons mentioned above. 
Posted by TeddyBloat

cheers Teddy,

ok so there's a 20% difference between the 2

v most shoves here which are likely to be 2 overs 88 plays the same as 22, or should that be 22 plays the same as 88, that was my point.

agree with all your other stats though making the play with either hand is risky, which is why i would only make it with the back up of the 1100 chips to play with.

TeddyBloat

Weighting their range upwards, so removing low Ax, and raggy off suit hands makes it worse for 22 too. There are proportionally more pairs inthat range and they crush 22 more than 88

88 blocks a lot of straight outs makes more 4 card straights and better 4 card flushes and is less often counterfeited

V a9+, k9+, qt+, jt+, t9s, 22-aa

22 has 40% equity

88 has 53% equity.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88? : cheers Teddy, ok so there's a 20% difference between the 2 v most shoves here which are likely to be 2 overs 88 plays the same as 22, or should that be 22 plays the same as 88, that was my point. agree with all your other stats though making the play with either hand is risky, which is why i would only make it with the back up of the 1100 chips to play with.
Posted by devonfish5

What are you talking about? They clearly do not play the same.

Teddy has explained it better than I ever can, but assuming the button is shoving most of his range, 88 can be in decent shape vs any smaller pair, Ax, Kx etc that has just the one over card, medium SC's where both cards are under 88......

22 vs a similar range will never have this luxury of being comfortably ahead of a lot of hands.

I'm astounded that a guy who has played thousands of DYM's thinks 88 and 22 are much the same in this spot on the bubble.

Edit; they only play the same if you think button can literally have just broadway cards. Not sure we could narrow them down to just that!

devonfish5

I'm not getting in to this with you hhy..

it's all about risk & reward.

most shoves here are likely to be v 2 overs a lot of the time, as I've already said, so 88 & 22 do play the same then.

the reward being we cash 50% of the time,the times we lose we still have 1100 chips to play with & still have every chance of cashing.

yes we are in bad shape v any pairs but that's the risk we are taking here, we aren't going to be simply given the game.

the reward is a profit of £4.50 right now, the loss & risk is possibly losing £5.50, at some point later in the game.

anyway, I'm glad I've astounded you, just shows we are on 2 completely different planets here.

As a winning dym player I rest my case.

hhyftrftdr

Well no, they don't play the same, as Teddy highlights above....even vs a tighter range 88 has 53% vs 40% for 22.

Why are they only shoving 2 overcards to 88? It's an unopened spot on the button with 5bb, shoving into stack sizes in the blinds that can't really call off light. You really don't think the button is ever shoving A6 here, or 79s, or K6s....

You completely contradict yourself as well. '' I've learnt that in bubble play,(especially since moving up to the £5 level),  it doesn't matter so much about the cards but it's all about aggression & where & when to use it''.

IMO if you believe what you say in that sentence, you should know that the button is probably shoving a much broader range than simply overcards to 88.

Yes you're a winning DYM player, that can't be in question, but some stuff you come out with baffles me.

waller02

So where do we draw the line then? If 22 is a fold and 88 is a call what are the worst cards we can/should call with?

You can't argue with the stats there dev, teddy has made it pretty clear that 22 is in worse shape than 88 against most shoving ranges.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

I'm not getting in to this with you hhy.. it's all about risk & reward. most shoves here are likely to be v 2 overs a lot of the time, as I've already said, so 88 & 22 do play the same then. the reward being we cash 50% of the time,the times we lose we still have 1100 chips to play with & still have every chance of cashing. yes we are in bad shape v any pairs but that's the risk we are taking here, we aren't going to be simply given the game. the reward is a profit of £4.50 right now, the loss & risk is possibly losing £5.50, at some point later in the game. anyway, I'm glad I've astounded you, just shows we are on 2 completely different planets here. As a winning dym player I rest my case.
Posted by devonfish5

And whats all this about? This is a strategy section, why would you not want to discuss the topic at hand? 

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

So where do we draw the line then? If 22 is a fold and 88 is a call what are the worst cards we can/should call with? You can't argue with the stats there dev, teddy has made it pretty clear that 22 is in worse shape than 88 against most shoving ranges.
Posted by waller02

I would guess 66 is probably right at the bottom of the calling range....maybe 55, maybe...

But I don't play DYM's much so what do I know?

TeddyBloat

Dev even taking pocket pairs out of the equation, 88 will fare better v 2overs to the 8 than 22 (blocks straights, a significant source of equity against small pockets, less likely to be counterfeited etc)

Dont get defensive, dev. It may be that calling 22 is correct v his shoving range, but it would not be because 22 plays the same as 88 v most ranges. As it clearly doesnt.

You are a winning reg, but that doesnt mean you cant increase edge. You know more today about how hands interact with ranges than you did yesterday - knowledge is power. Take the extra ev now at your desposal.

As for calling ranges, the answer wont lie in simple equity calculations. ICM will dominate the calculation. Flipping here gifts equity to all the other players at the table. You take ALL the risk, but share the reward with the rest of the table. Waller and rekop1 were loving life when the cards were turned over

stuarty117

As i said before a very good dym reg told me on another hand were i called with 77 that i was wrong to do so.

I dunno thats why i think its very tight. Would love to know what Jac35 thinks.

I just think in my experience people shove with any A at this stage, so 88 is very strong i was just unlucky to be against two overs. I thought i might have been up against A5, A4 or something like that.

The lower PPs can also get counterfeited 

So 22 definitly doesnt play the same as 88 

TeddyBloat

Yeah never judge a call by the results. You are calling v a range,  and its your expectation v the range that matters. if you come up against the top of his range,  unlucky innit. 

Icimizer offer 5 free calcs a day, plug some stacks and ranges in and see where the borders are.

TeddyBloat

ok ran the numbers through an icm calculator.

against: 22+,A7s+,A8o+,K9+,Q9s+,QTo+,J9s+,JTo,T9s

a tight range

88 is a marginal call. 55 is basically break even. the results are posted below:




v a wider shoving range of: 22+,A2+,K5s+,K8o+,Q7s+,Q9o+,J7s+,J9o+,T7s+,T8o+,96s+,98o,85s+,87o,75s+,64s+,53s+,43s

88 becomes more clear and 33 is our marginal call.

results:




v any two cards:




finally as a refrence point and for those interested here is the nash equilibrium solution for this situation.

assuming the sb always folds then the button should shove:

22+,A2+,K4s+,KTo+,Q6s+,QTo+,J8s+,JTo,T7s+,T9o,97s+,87s [34%]

and we should call:

44+, A4s+, A7o+, KTs, KQo.

------


88 looks like its a call v most competent opponents. and lots of players will minraise AA and KK anyway.

i dont know what the dym population does at these depths, but the above should help formulate appropriate ranges for similar situations you come across.

a good benchmark is the 34% equilibrium shoving range. if we think villain is shoving wider then we can call wider than the suggested nash range, if he minraises QQ+ we can call wider. if he shoves tighter we can fold a couple more Ax and PPs.

waller02

Great stuff Teddy thanks for taking the time to do that.

TeddyBloat

if you can, familiarise yourself with icmizer.

its a great tool. that post took 10 minutes tops. you get 5 free calcs a day. my subscription has expired now [i use a heads up specific tool now] but the above was all done using the free calcs.

it has limitations but for solving PUSH/FOLD situations its great

Matt237

Marginal but is a call

devonfish5

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

So where do we draw the line then? If 22 is a fold and 88 is a call what are the worst cards we can/should call with? You can't argue with the stats there dev, teddy has made it pretty clear that 22 is in worse shape than 88 against most shoving ranges.
Posted by waller02

not v 2 overs it isn't, which is my point here that you all are missing & imo our opponents most likely range.

if we run in to a higher pair, that's tuff that's the risk we take here.

it's all about notes on players too & going with your gut feelings sometimes.

most players on the bubble play way too tight & passively by folding way too often.

sometimes as here if you take the risk you might get that reward, by folding you will never know.

you can call with almost any 2 if it's to knock a player out & cash, & with those 1100 chips as plan b

I don't care what hhy Teddy or anyone else thinks, I play my own way. if you choose to play like timid little lambs that's up to you... baaah baaah. -:)

stuarty117

Hi Dev

Verus two overs you are in worse shape, my previous point as you can be counterfieted

Lets say we are against AK

What if the board runs out

44J55

Your 22 is no good then

Even

44442 your 2 kicker not good, 

There is so many different sceniros why 88 plays around 5% better (maybe more) than 22.

These can be the decisions that increase your roi by 1% which is huge in dyms.

TeddyBloat

not v 2 overs it isn't, which is my point here that you all are missing & imo our opponents most likely range.

22 performs worse against  two-overcards to 88 than does 88. villains WILL be shoving pairs along with their two-overs-to-88. 22 is a massive dog v that range. 88 isnt.

you can play how you want dev, but dont give out bad and incorrect advice such as  "22 performs the same v shoving ranges as 88' as that is clearly and demonstrably untrue.


there is nothing weak or lamb like about making good folds, dev. its all about making money.

-----


i can see how you can be a winning player by employing the strategy of 'calling with 22 and having a back up of 1100 chips] lets look at some maths here:

22 agaisnt a range of 22-JJ and any two overs to 88 has about 40% equity.

when we call we guarentee ourselves a winrate:

e +[ [1-e]*es]

e = equity v shoving range

es = % of times we win as the new short stack

the 1-e term simply gives us the % of how often we find ourselves as the short stack. the short stack cannot expect to win more than 50% of the time as there are 4 players and he is at a chip disadvantage.  lets assume that the shortie needs to win a 40/60 flip, and then cashes 75% of the time after doing so. He  can therefore expect to cash 30% of the time. reasonable?
so plugging numbers in:

Edited numbers...

.4+[.6*.4] = 58% winrate

ok so we just beat rake.

lets be more optimistic and call with a hand with 50% equity

.5+[.5*.2] = 65% winrate

great we have just smashed the rake and are a winning player. BOOM!

expcept that if we had folded we would expect to cash at least 75% of the time and more like 80%. that REALLY beats the rake.

moreover lets look at the winrates of the other players not involved in the hand. given you have 40% equity they have a win rate of:

.4+[.6*.75] = 85%

and when you have 50% equity:

.5+[.5*.75] = 87.5%

wow!

whilst you have found a winning strat, you are not maximising you winnings. furthermore having you employ this strat of "call with junk and have a shart-stack as back up" strategy means that having you on their table is GREAT for the other regs. having you on their table on the bubble boosts the other regs winrates by a huge margin.

having you on the bubble v a shortstack means they can sit back, let you do all the donkey work, take all the risk and watch you share the reward with them. you get a 60% winrate and beat the rake - they get a 90% winrate and all the girls.

devonfish5

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

Hi Dev Verus two overs you are in worse shape, my previous point as you can be counterfieted Lets say we are against AK What if the board runs out 44J55 Your 22 is no good then Even 44442 your 2 kicker not good,  There is so many different sceniros why 88 plays around 5% better (maybe more) than 22. These can be the decisions that increase your roi by 1% which is huge in dyms.
Posted by stuarty117

I get what you & the others are saying Stuart, really I do.

but we are not putting our own life on the line here we still have a playable stack behind, just.  we are going for the Win here, the KO punch if you like.

we can wait for a better spot it's true but then again we are possibly wasting an opportunity here.

on the bubble it's all about 'risk & reward' & by taking the odd risk here & there you are increasing your chances of winning not reducing them...imo.

I'm not saying that I would call here with 88 or 22 I'm saying you could.

yes you have to play tight for most of the game but there comes a time to attack.

yes knowing the odds is important, granted, but there is so much more to dym's than that, imo.

if it was all about the odds & everyone played perfectly then we would all simply end up level & losing out to the rake.

anyway, we can talk about this until the sheep come home I've given my point of view on this situation which is really for the original poster. how he or anyone else uses it is up to them.

I play dym's I play my own game I win it's that simple. if you think i'm wrong here then so be it, I can't change that.

maybe I am but that doesn't matter to me, we all see the same things differently all the time. 

it's like a painting, one likes it another doesn't, it's that simple.

as an artist...of sorts myself, lol maybe I am more creative in my play here on the bubble than many others, I don't know, which maybe counter reacts my earlier levels tight play, where many players get more creative there perhaps.

it's all very interesting though isn't it, & maybe some food for thought.

as I say, there is more to playing dym's than simply crunching numbers, or at least I think so.

devonfish5

Fair play Teddy I can't beat you here.

You have all your numbers to back you up.

so are you saying I never make good folds?

I'd love to meet all those players with a 90% win rate btw.

I think you are taking this one hand way to seriously mate.

I am saying what you could do not what you should do.

I am offering some free advice to a fellow player

how they you or anyone else takes it is out of my control.

Jesus, so much for 'happy new year' think you all need a chill pill or summin.