Is this a call or fold with the 88?

TeddyBloat

i'm not having a go mate.

those numbers are very rough, but yes when one player is at risk with 50% equity on the bubble the other two players not in the hand can expect to win around 85-90% of the times they get to that situation. it's the nut DYM spot:

2 players have already bust and another is 50/50 to bust and your chips are not at risk.

of course from start of game winrates will be more like 57%, but once you get to the bubble winrates will be much higher, non...

---

i'm not saying you dont make good folds, not sure where you got that from. i suck at DYMs you clearly do not. i find the math of the game interesting and i like solving situations. it helps me in my games.


hooowever... saying making laydowns is lamb like or passive aint good advice. i give out bad advice all the time. dont take anything i say as gospel, but please do correct me innit. dont be so defensive mate. i like you and you give out lots of great advice in the clinics. i can defo see why calling somewhat light v short stacks is good having run some basic numbers, esp if you are not putting a big% of your stack in the middle.

all good, sir

devonfish5

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

i'm not having a go mate. those numbers are very rough, but yes when one player is at risk with 50% equity on the bubble the other two players not in the hand can expect to win around 85-90% of the times they get to that situation. it's the nut DYM spot: 2 players have already bust and another is 50/50 to bust and your chips are not at risk. of course from start of game winrates will be more like 57%, but once you get to the bubble winrates will be much higher, non... --- i'm not saying you dont make good folds, not sure where you got that from. i suck at DYMs you clearly do not. i find the math of the game interesting and i like solving situations. it helps me in my games. hooowever... saying making laydowns is lamb like or passive aint good advice. i give out bad advice all the time. dont take anything i say as gospel, but please do correct me innit. dont be so defensive mate. i like you and you give out lots of great advice in the clinics. i can defo see why calling somewhat light v short stacks is good having run some basic numbers, esp if you are not putting a big% of your stack in the middle. all good, sir
Posted by TeddyBloat

Apart  from the maths lessons you've been posting, that's the 2nd best thing I've read  

Teddy Teddy Teddy... it's all a game mate, none of this is life or death, like your posts are coming across as.

                             play a few thousand dym's like me then get back to me again & we can have a good old catch up...

how's that.

best wishes,

dev

TeddyBloat

sorry if i come across bad dev.

not my intention squire.

i wont take you up on a dym challenge as i wouldnt stand a chance mate.

hhyftrftdr

Dev, you are coming across terribly in the thread. Smug, arrogant, saying things that are simply not true from a strat POV. And then you get super defensive.

You seem to think that because you are a winning DYM player, then you can do no wrong. This is clearly not the case, there is always scope to get better. I am a winning/profitable tournament player (believe it or not!) but there are plenty of hands and spots that I could play better, I certainly don't take the mantra that.... 'I'm profitable in my format of the game and thus my decisions are sound and correct' <  this is how you come across.

hhyftrftdr

I actually think you owe Teddy an apology, Dev.

He has put up various posts that have been good reading, and gone into depth about DYM end game. You should be grateful that he went to that effort, including using some of his free calculations on Icimizer. He didn't have to do that, or do anything in the thread. Teddy has effectively given you more learning tools yet he has said sorry to you? Crazy.

waller02

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

I actually think you owe Teddy an apology, Dev. He has put up various posts that have been good reading, and gone into depth about DYM end game. You should be grateful that he went to that effort, including using some of his free calculations on Icimizer. He didn't have to do that, or do anything in the thread. Teddy has effectively given you more learning tools yet he has said sorry to you? Crazy.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

It pains me to agree with you but you're right.

Dev, you seemed to take teddy's posts as some kind of personal attack at your game. It certainly wasn't that, he was posting advice which I had asked for. He even took the time to explain the maths behind the advice he was giving.

Advice like this is priceless imo and all that some of your remarks could achieve is to put ppl like teddy off giving any more help in the future. I know if I was teddy I certainly wouldn't feel like helping out anymore if that's the response I got

RLT16

I am calling here all day long, his range is so wide at this stage that most the time your likely to be up agaisnt one over card, ofcourse your occasionally going to be up agaisnt a higher pair or two overs but majority of the time in my experiences your normal well ahead

devonfish5

ok, so if you feel I owe Teddy an apology...

SORRY TEDDY...

I can see how much time & effort you have given here, so well done, nice work.

if you want to play dym's by numbers that's fine, gl with that, but from my experience there seems to be more to it than that,

& I was simply trying to give you my take on the situation, rightly or wrongly.

yes 88 & 22 here play close but as your numbers show there is a slight difference, so again I'm apologising if I have misformed anyone there.

good luck waller if you are playing dym's unless you come up against me obviously -:)

devonfish5

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

sorry if i come across bad dev. not my intention squire. i wont take you up on a dym challenge as i wouldnt stand a chance mate.
Posted by TeddyBloat

You didn't come across bad at allmate, you just had a different view to mine here, if anything it was me that came across that way, so apologies for that.

I'm not coming here to fall out with anyone just to give my points of view, that's all.

you had the maths on your side to back you up I had my dym head on, on my side.

it was just a clash of opinions that's all.

keep up the good work.

best wishes for 2015,

dev

devonfish5

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

Dev, you are coming across terribly in the thread. Smug, arrogant, saying things that are simply not true from a strat POV. And then you get super defensive. You seem to think that because you are a winning DYM player, then you can do no wrong. This is clearly not the case, there is always scope to get better. I am a winning/profitable tournament player (believe it or not!) but there are plenty of hands and spots that I could play better, I certainly don't take the mantra that.... 'I'm profitable in my format of the game and thus my decisions are sound and correct' <  this is how you come across.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

I'm giving my points of view hhy, if you teddy or anyone else don't like them or agree with them, so what, I don't give a toss.

waller o2 asked a question & I responded to it, what he or anyone else makes of it is their choice.

Teddy himself admits he can'y play dym's so is basically just giving us a maths lesson here, whereas I'm giving you my experience from thousands of bubble hand experience.

yes, I could be wrong here, so what if I am, it's hardly life or death.

I'm entitled to have my say regardless of what you all think of my play.

If people want to criticise it that's fine but if people start attacking my ideas & thought processes then of course I'm going to defend myself.

I'm only a low stakes dym player like many others & do pretty well. I don't think of myself as a 'god' or any thing of the sort, & of course I'm not always right, I'm just giving it to you as I see it.

devonfish5

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88? : I would guess 66 is probably right at the bottom of the calling range....maybe 55, maybe... But I don't play DYM's much so what do I know?
Posted by hhyftrftdr

VERY little -:)

TeddyBloat

no worries dev,

running numbers and trying to solve situations helps me in my games so any chance i get think about poker i take it, so posting here benefits me as much as anything else.

take any chance you get to improve edge dev, even if it comes from a non-specialist. i may suck at dyms but range v range esp PUSH/FOLD ranges and how they match up is my bread and butter. the numbers really do matter imo.

general DYM strat of course im not going to be able to offer advice on, but if you ever want help running numbers when facing shoves, or deciding when to shove let me know. you can get a lot of edge in these situations as most recs will have terrible ranges that you can exploit if you know how.

mtt peeps will have lots of experience of bubble play and 4 handed table dynamics, esp from sattellites. harry will be well used to balancing up payouts v equity when deciding to call a shove - indeed he intuitively arrived at the correct ICM border lines that i had to use a powerful ICM-tool to calculate.

these clinics are great for having people with different specialities share ideas / concepts. sure some advice wont be transferable, but myabe be a little more open-minded and less defensive and you can increase your own ROI

gl, squire

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

no worries dev, running numbers and trying to solve situations helps me in my games so any chance i get think about poker i take it, so posting here benefits me as much as anything else. take any chance you get to improve edge dev, even if it comes from a non-specialist. i may suck at dyms but range v range esp PUSH/FOLD ranges and how they match up is my bread and butter. the numbers really do matter imo. general DYM strat of course im not going to be able to offer advice on, but if you ever want help running numbers when facing shoves, or deciding when to shove let me know. you can get a lot of edge in these situations as most recs will have terrible ranges that you can exploit if you know how. mtt peeps will have lots of experience of bubble play and 4 handed table dynamics, esp from sattellites. harry will be well used to balancing up payouts v equity when deciding to call a shove - indeed he intuitively arrived at the correct ICM border lines that i had to use a powerful ICM-tool to calculate. these clinics are great for having people with different specialities share ideas / concepts. sure some advice wont be transferable, but myabe be a little more open-minded and less defensive and you can increase your own ROI gl, squire
Posted by TeddyBloat

Sigh, not as often as I'd like!

Dev, just don't get so defensive. Of course you should share your views, but there is no need to be so smug about everything. Keep your mind open and you might even win a few more quid, as Teddy says.

But you have to realise that when you say something as inaccurate as 88 and 22 play the same, people are rightly gonna pick you up on it.

devonfish5

OK, let's bring this to a close...

thanks Teddy for your accurate & interesting statistics, I'm sure it took you time & effort to do, & it will be of help to many.

I only know the basics ie; a pair v 2 overs is a race, each card is worth 2%, KK gets you in to trouble, etc etc

maybe as/if I move up the levels it might become necessary for me to get deeper in to this part of the game, & many thanks for the offer of helping me there, I might take you up on that one day.

As to my roi, I have no idea what that figure might be, I'm sure ss have a number somewhere, but I've no real interest in that anyway.

I know how much I have won to within £100 & am happy with that number for the levels I play/have played.

it's around 3.5k right now for anyone interested...despite what ss might say.

of course I want to improve my roi & I'm sure I will in time.

I find coming to the poker clinic & now the sit & go strategy sections useful from time to time when I do make the effort,

but most of my points of view are contested/challenged/dismissed/ridiculed/etc/etc, not sure of the one correct word

I then get drawn in t discussions about my play & feel I have to justify my actions to you all, which then sometimes gets out of hand, as here I think in places.

I don't want to come here to do that, I was simply trying to give waller 02 my take on the situation.

it doesn't matter if I am right or wrong, it is only my point of view.

yes the 88 v 22 thing I can see is the main focus here & as said I apologise if I have mislead anyone or given wrong information.

I thought that 88 & 22 played the same v 2 overs, which they don't as I've now learnt but imo in this situation they are close enough in percentage terms to make the call if as I said we are putting opponent on 2 overs, which again imo I think they would/could be holding enough of the time to make the call.

anyway, what has been said can't be changed now so let's all move on.

 HHY, 

        I don't want to keep on going over old ground but you & I are obviously going to disagree just for the fun to disagree I think  lol

Yes I do get defensive at times when I am being attacked, which you seem to enjoy doing at every chance you get, whether it be my tactics of booking the win, how many tables I choose to play, or how I play a hand.

I can't remember the last good thing you ever said to me... oh, you haven't.

If I come across as smug as you put it, I apologise for that, it's not done intentionally.

I just think that as a winning player I have earnt the right to give my opinion, even if it isn't always 100% accurate, or to your liking.

Maybe if you put in a little more thought as to how you reply to my posts in future & visa versa, we might be able to tolerate each others views a little better, & make life hear a little bit more pleasurable, for everyone.

anyway, I'm done here, 

watching the darts tonight where Taylor hopefully grinds out the win & makes me another £115 to add to my b/r.

dev.

stuarty117

Hi Dev 

Stick money on Anderson so you cant lose 

waller02

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

OK, let's bring this to a close... thanks Teddy for your accurate & interesting statistics, I'm sure it took you time & effort to do, & it will be of help to many. I only know the basics ie; a pair v 2 overs is a race, each card is worth 2%, KK gets you in to trouble, etc etc maybe as/if I move up the levels it might become necessary for me to get deeper in to this part of the game, & many thanks for the offer of helping me there, I might take you up on that one day. As to my roi, I have no idea what that figure might be, I'm sure ss have a number somewhere, but I've no real interest in that anyway. I know how much I have won to within £100 & am happy with that number for the levels I play/have played. it's around 3.5k right now for anyone interested...despite what ss might say. of course I want to improve my roi & I'm sure I will in time. I find coming to the poker clinic & now the sit & go strategy sections useful from time to time when I do make the effort, but most of my points of view are contested/challenged/dismissed/ridiculed/etc/etc, not sure of the one correct word I then get drawn in t discussions about my play & feel I have to justify my actions to you all, which then sometimes gets out of hand, as here I think in places. I don't want to come here to do that, I was simply trying to give waller 02 my take on the situation. it doesn't matter if I am right or wrong, it is only my point of view. yes the 88 v 22 thing I can see is the main focus here & as said I apologise if I have mislead anyone or given wrong information. I thought that 88 & 22 played the same v 2 overs, which they don't as I've now learnt but imo in this situation they are close enough in percentage terms to make the call if as I said we are putting opponent on 2 overs, which again imo I think they would/could be holding enough of the time to make the call. anyway, what has been said can't be changed now so let's all move on.  HHY,          I don't want to keep on going over old ground but you & I are obviously going to disagree just for the fun to disagree I think  lol Yes I do get defensive at times when I am being attacked, which you seem to enjoy doing at every chance you get, whether it be my tactics of booking the win, how many tables I choose to play, or how I play a hand. I can't remember the last good thing you ever said to me... oh, you haven't. If I come across as smug as you put it, I apologise for that, it's not done intentionally. I just think that as a winning player I have earnt the right to give my opinion, even if it isn't always 100% accurate, or to your liking. Maybe if you put in a little more thought as to how you reply to my posts in future & visa versa, we might be able to tolerate each others views a little better, & make life hear a little bit more pleasurable, for everyone. anyway, I'm done here,  watching the darts tonight where Taylor hopefully grinds out the win & makes me another £115 to add to my b/r. dev.
Posted by devonfish5

Fair play dev...........although I fancy Anderson tonight, should be a great game though!