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The Case Against Teams

EyemanEyeman
edited April 2015 in Team Talk
Teams have been on Skypoker for a while now, but there's a few things that make them inappropriate in my opinion, and Sky may want to reconsider them. I speak as someone who has been in a team (TKP) for a few years, and enjoy the cameraderie that the team engenders.
We all know poker is an individual game, and that's acknowledged by all teams. I haven't seen collusion, and it's nothing to do with that.
The problem arises here when Sky has allowed anyone to set up teams, styling themselves as "captains" etc without anyone checking to see how those teams are run, who can or can't join a team and who makes the decision as to who is "in" or "out" for whatever reason.
Now, if there wasn't any reward for teams, it wouldn't be relevant or any of Sky's concern about team politics and the in-fighting that can go on when any group of people get together with any sort of hierarchy system. However, Sky DOES offer team prizes, and so indirectly they encourage and condone the pettiness that can and does occur.
I think the DTD competition is a great idea. It has brought about a great community spirit, and the teams really get behind their players. Think on this, would it have been any different if Sky had nominated teams, and DTD players were assigned a team randomly in order? Not only would it take away this hierarchy, but it would also mean that all teams would have roughly equal numbers (clearly some people would register with a team, then never or rarely play so slight inequities could exist over time, but that can be remedied when new players join). They could still have facebook pages, and team spirit, but no-one could be removed on the whim of a single person (whether warranted or not). Surely Sky should be deciding who can or can't win prizes, not team captains?
I'm not saying I'm right, but am opening up a discussion. There's been some unsavoury incidents from time to time, and maybe that's just human nature, but give someone a little power, and they can behave in very strange ways.
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    samantha25samantha25
    edited January 2015
    I agree, lets ban all teams and just have friends... will make all the difference!

    No... the same people will still agree/bicker. Silly post IMO.
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    hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited January 2015

    Case is water tight. You ever thought about a career in law?

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    EyemanEyeman
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    Case is water tight. You ever thought about a career in law?
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    Just starting a debate. Any thoughts?
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    hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams : Just starting a debate. Any thoughts?
    Posted by Eyeman
    Yes, my thoughts are being in a team is great (assuming you are in a team that 'fits'). Loads of potential for new friends, people to seek out for advice about poker and stuff away from the felt, lots of fun to be had, and the possibility to organise stuff like Newcastle in March.

    Plenty of pros, and very few cons from my perspective. Though I'm not letting a certain thread cloud my judgement.
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    EyemanEyeman
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams : Yes, my thoughts are being in a team is great (assuming you are in a team that 'fits'). Loads of potential for new friends, people to seek out for advice about poker and stuff away from the felt, lots of fun to be had, and the possibility to organise stuff like Newcastle in March. Plenty of pros, and very few cons from my perspective. Though I'm not letting a certain thread cloud my judgement.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    Maybe I should have said "in their current format". I think having teamsas suggested in my post would still give the same pros as you suggest with fewer of the cons. Trust me - the thread you are thinking of has nothing to do with my post.
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    vinny67vinny67
    edited January 2015
    it seems the fun police are at it again.....any1 deemed to be having fun with maybe a "slightly warped" sense of humour should be thrown to the lions ... im not in a team at all but do not see teams as a problem.

    for what its worth
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    hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams : Maybe I should have said "in their current format". I think having teamsas suggested in my post would still give the same pros as you suggest with fewer of the cons. Trust me - the thread you are thinking of has nothing to do with my post.
    Posted by Eyeman
    I'm not entirely sure what you are wanting. The team format seems to have worked, and is working, fine for years.

    Are you requesting that Sky allocate the teams? Or meddle in them somewhat? So just a load of randoms get lumped together?

    In all honesty there are no cons in my eyes. People will fall out, and people will come and go, this is normal for any team and hardly exclusive to Sky Poker. Sky meddling in the teams would probably cause and escalate any problems.

    I know what has brought this on btw. Granted, not that thread, but I know. Nothing like making a mountain out of a molehill.
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    EyemanEyeman
    edited January 2015
    I suspect it's too far gone now. Teams are fun. Dictatorships less so.
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    Nuggy962Nuggy962
    edited January 2015
    For what it is worth

    I chose to be in a team to help me srt my trolling out and it worked a treat!

    being in a team is personal choice - you do not have to be, if you choose to and there is a reward on offer - good for you, its an outside bonus.

    Yeah anyone can set it up but only the real dedicated ones grow roots and keep on going,  As a proud member of a team, i rarely get involved in DTD etc but is great to make friends and get railed and rail fellow members.

    Interesting topic to start a debate but probably angled all wrong

    as the saying goes, if its not broken dont try to fix it!
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    hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    I suspect it's too far gone now. Teams are fun. Dictatorships less so.
    Posted by Eyeman
    I agree, why do you think I left THS?! Sorry Dave ;)

    If you're that bothered, then why don't TKP snap him up?
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    GELDYGELDY
    edited January 2015
    The problem arises here when Sky has allowed anyone to set up teams,

    I see this as more the solution than a problem. If someone doesn't like the team they are in any more they might be able to join another, or set up one of their own. sanctions of chat, forum and poker bans will still exist for anyone falling too far out of line from the community's point of view, and forum rules can adapt to cope with mob behaviour, regardless of whether it is team inspired or not.

    imho the responsibility lies with the individuals, not with the team. 
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    HITMAN_RVHITMAN_RV
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams : I agree, why do you think I left THS?! Sorry Dave ;) If you're that bothered, then why don't TKP snap him up?
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    hmmmmmmmmmmm.........lol!!

    I thought we'd dropped all that??

    truth is you could not be more wrong, but have your lil' public Dig!!

    on me, X

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    ommomm
    edited January 2015
    In Response to The Case Against Teams:
    Teams have been on Skypoker for a while now, but there's a few things that make them inappropriate in my opinion, and Sky may want to reconsider them. I speak as someone who has been in a team (TKP) for a few years, and enjoy the cameraderie that the team engenders. We all know poker is an individual game, and that's acknowledged by all teams. I haven't seen collusion, and it's nothing to do with that. The problem arises here when Sky has allowed anyone to set up teams, styling themselves as "captains" etc without anyone checking to see how those teams are run, who can or can't join a team and who makes the decision as to who is "in" or "out" for whatever reason. Now, if there wasn't any reward for teams, it wouldn't be relevant or any of Sky's concern about team politics and the in-fighting that can go on when any group of people get together with any sort of hierarchy system. However, Sky DOES offer team prizes, and so indirectly they encourage and condone the pettiness that can and does occur. I think the DTD competition is a great idea. It has brought about a great community spirit, and the teams really get behind their players. Think on this, would it have been any different if Sky had nominated teams, and DTD players were assigned a team randomly in order? Not only would it take away this hierarchy, but it would also mean that all teams would have roughly equal numbers (clearly some people would register with a team, then never or rarely play so slight inequities could exist over time, but that can be remedied when new players join). They could still have facebook pages, and team spirit, but no-one could be removed on the whim of a single person (whether warranted or not). Surely Sky should be deciding who can or can't win prizes, not team captains? I'm not saying I'm right, but am opening up a discussion. There's been some unsavoury incidents from time to time, and maybe that's just human nature, but give someone a little power, and they can behave in very strange ways.
    Posted by Eyeman

    My understanding is that DTD is an individual competition and that the team element was added at a later date and run entirely separate to the original DTD, I may be wrong of course?

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    HITMAN_RVHITMAN_RV
    edited January 2015
    Interesting OP Graham.

    I will Comment later on points as just busy earning a Living at present!
    Importantly TEAMS are Independant of Sky!! But if run well, Sky support their Aims for mutual benifit!

    Poker Team HitSquad, as Capo,  is a Hobby to me, & For Others, for Fun! [As I already Run, Own a Thriving Business Outside of Poker].


    IMPORTANT FUN!!!!!!!!!!..I think Best that way!!!

    Now you have to work at anything to keep it Strong, stay Focused, Disciplined, Ethical, and after 4 Years, 150+Members, Much Success, including Winning The APAT National Team Championships, i think we doing something rite!

    The Monday Forum DTD has Dovetailed well, & been complimented by Teams, 80-90% of regged runnrrs are Team Players No!

    All to your Own..

    Well-Run Teams will Flourish as current Ones are...
    Not so well Run Teams will fade away or Implode as has happened!!

    ....Laws of Human Jungle as Business' Or Footll clubs for instance.



    I Personally Try to Support all Other Teams that want it, as with FOSP etc, dispite what a minor few may imply!

    Wow, said more than i thought...
    Will add small points later.

    GL All!!



    Heil Hitman........Fack, Ooooppsss, just a slip I promise!!
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    HITMAN_RVHITMAN_RV
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    In Response to The Case Against Teams : My understanding is that DTD is an individual competition and that the team element was added at a later date and run entirely separate to the original DTD, I may be wrong of course?
    Posted by omm

    Yes Omm Mate

    Forum DTD Was started By Michael DTW on cusp 2010/11, from memory, I started the Team League in May 2011, bolted on to it after asking admins DTW & Scousered, who were only too plaesed as we immeidiatley nearl;y trebled numbers.

    Was Challenge between HitSquad & TKP, but we then had others ask to join in TPT & 51 first

    It was a Success both Leagues Complementing each other, numbers going up fro 20-30 to 125+ quiclky.

    Michael then asked Me  Maxally to help him on Indidvidual DTD too, which we did for close 3 years, till i stepped out as Busy in other areas!


    I & HitSquad, will always support Michaels DTW's DTD League as prived bu Us provided the Most Loyal Players overs Years as others have proved too!!
    I hope all facts above are close correct, Michael will say if not, thanks mate.

    Heil Hitman!!

    Jeez!!

    ..must stop that....
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    HITMAN_RVHITMAN_RV
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams : I'm not entirely sure what you are wanting. The team format seems to have worked, and is working, fine for years. Are you requesting that Sky allocate the teams? Or meddle in them somewhat? So just a load of randoms get lumped together? In all honesty there are no cons in my eyes. People will fall out, and people will come and go, this is normal for any team and hardly exclusive to Sky Poker. Sky meddling in the teams would probably cause and escalate any problems. I know what has brought this on btw. Granted, not that thread, but I know. Nothing like making a mountain out of a molehill.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    Good above points H!!

    But I've Highlited???, Coz I dont Know whats brought this on?? Pray Tell or pm me??
    Have I done summat wrong, why my name was brought up??

    If I not involved in whatever GREAT, lets keep it that way pls, as I got enuf on !!
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    HITMAN_RVHITMAN_RV
    edited January 2015
    oppppps forgot.......HH
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    EyemanEyeman
    edited January 2015
    My point is not really specific, but general, and as I say way after the event, and so probably too late. I have nothing but admiration for you, Dave and THS.
    Let's however take a scanario when someone (let's say me) starts a team, but I don't like black people or gay people or gingers or women or a certain religion or people who look at me in a funny way. Is it OK that I can run my team thus?
    I may not advertise that's how I do it, but I could still do so. No-one would be any the wiser.
    Surely that's wrong. 
    An original random assignment would have been much better, as there could be no cases as above. I'm not for a second saying that any of that is going on, but it could do.
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    HITMAN_RVHITMAN_RV
    edited January 2015
     I Understand Graham, I respect You also, even tho we sometimes disagree, but always have fun & drink when we meet!!

    I started my Team by accident, just 3/4 of Us going to Pub games in West london & Iver, I was known as 'The Hitman' from Footie, & they started calling us The HitSquad, it took off after we went to Luton SPT, my first Big Live Game!

    Listen...
    I dont like Poker Players, I dont let any in, lol, why we are succesful!!


    Just feel Your OP is not getting at real issue.

    Obviously somthing has happened, but it has nothing to do with ALL THE Teams & Members.
    Issues between 3/4 clashing Poker Ego's have nothing to do with the 300+ Members of Teams who enjoy DTD Mondays & other great Events!!
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    HITMAN_RVHITMAN_RV
    edited January 2015
    as per Darwins Theory of Evolution, & Hitmans Law of Life!


    ...........The Strong, Clever will Evolve & Succeed in a selected enviroment, others will/may Fail.
    Sky cannot Force folk to 'get on' or form Teams, Groups Together, they will evolve Naturally...

    .......and unfortunately in this Troll-Infested Modern Cyber World, you will always gets Knockers of Success & Folk up there in limelight!!

    I dont mind Some Knockers!!




    They can be Good....I like 2 Big Ones, On the Front of My Women!!!


    Kiddin, XX
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    FlyingDaggFlyingDagg
    edited January 2015
    In Response to The Case Against Teams:
    Teams have been on Skypoker for a while now, but there's a few things that make them inappropriate in my opinion, and Sky may want to reconsider them. I speak as someone who has been in a team (TKP) for a few years, and enjoy the cameraderie that the team engenders. We all know poker is an individual game, and that's acknowledged by all teams. I haven't seen collusion, and it's nothing to do with that. The problem arises here when Sky has allowed anyone to set up teams, styling themselves as "captains" etc without anyone checking to see how those teams are run, who can or can't join a team and who makes the decision as to who is "in" or "out" for whatever reason. Now, if there wasn't any reward for teams, it wouldn't be relevant or any of Sky's concern about team politics and the in-fighting that can go on when any group of people get together with any sort of hierarchy system. However, Sky DOES offer team prizes, and so indirectly they encourage and condone the pettiness that can and does occur. I think the DTD competition is a great idea. It has brought about a great community spirit, and the teams really get behind their players. Think on this, would it have been any different if Sky had nominated teams, and DTD players were assigned a team randomly in order? Not only would it take away this hierarchy, but it would also mean that all teams would have roughly equal numbers (clearly some people would register with a team, then never or rarely play so slight inequities could exist over time, but that can be remedied when new players join). They could still have facebook pages, and team spirit, but no-one could be removed on the whim of a single person (whether warranted or not). Surely Sky should be deciding who can or can't win prizes, not team captains? I'm not saying I'm right, but am opening up a discussion. There's been some unsavoury incidents from time to time, and maybe that's just human nature, but give someone a little power, and they can behave in very strange ways.
    Posted by Eyeman
    Graham I've highlighted the 2 main points I would like to address. First of all I want to say it's definitely not an ego thing with Pokertrev that he is known as the captain. TPT once stood for Team Poker Trev (he had 5 minutes to come up with a name before DTD started on that particular night) The name has never sat easy with him and last year I believe he asked for alternative suggestions. I eventually came up with Team Poker Titans and Trevor was all for it. The TPT team was his idea and it seems only natural that he is called captain and I can say for sure he does not run it as an autocracy. He is always willing to listen to other members input. As far as I am aware not a single player has been refused entry to TPT. When a player has been removed from TPT it is ALWAYS for a valid reason whether it be chat abuse, cheating or scamming players. These decisions are never taken by Trevor alone there is always serious discussion about it between Trevor and myself and sometimes other team members.

    Let's however take a scanario when someone (let's say me) starts a team, but I don't like black people or gay people or gingers or women or a certain religion or people who look at me in a funny way. Is it OK that I can run my team thus?
    I may not advertise that's how I do it, but I could still do so. No-one would be any the wiser.
    Surely that's wrong.
    It's not only wrong to run a team like this but it's nigh impossible. Apart from a poker alias and maybe some basic info on a players profile page we know nothing about other players. Can you please explain how you would find out whether they are black, gay or Catholic? A questionnaire? Even if you have SkyPoker deciding the teams how do you know that the Sky employee involved doesn't have those prejudices?

    Putting the team placements in the hands of Sky would make things worse in my opinion. There are certain players, thankfully not too many of them, that I wouldn't want to be in the same team as.

    By the way the DTD is only a very small part of the reason to have teams these days. Most players join a team for the camaraderie, because they want to be involved in the community aspect and maybe even to seek advice to improve their poker.

    Finally I think it's rather ironic that a team member of TKP (with a self appointed captain) is against the team thing.
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    hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams : Good above points H!! But I've Highlited???, Coz I dont Know whats brought this on?? Pray Tell or pm me?? Have I done summat wrong, why my name was brought up?? If I not involved in whatever GREAT, lets keep it that way pls, as I got enuf on !!
    Posted by HITMAN_RV
    You're a tad excitable today Dave?!

    You're name was brought up cos Eyeman left me an open goal and I tapped it in. I even put a wink to show that I wasn't being serious. Here's another one just for you ;)

    The 'issue' that I know Graham is getting at has nothing to do with you or THS.

    Eyeman, 24 hours later and I still don't agree with a word of what you put in OP. Complete knee jerk reaction. Change the whole team set up on Sky over the one 'incident'? Nah.
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    HITMAN_RVHITMAN_RV
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams : You're a tad excitable today Dave?! You're name was brought up cos Eyeman left me an open goal and I tapped it in. I even put a wink to show that I wasn't being serious. Here's another one just for you ;) The 'issue' that I know Graham is getting at has nothing to do with you or THS. Eyeman, 24 hours later and I still don't agree with a word of what you put in OP. Complete knee jerk reaction. Change the whole team set up on Sky over the one 'incident'? Nah.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    LOL Exitable, am positively & absolutley Semi-Lobbed, as Fulham are playing tonight!!

    No issue, was kiddin too ;].

    I agree again FFS!!!!!!!!!!!... we may need to get a Room Jon!!



    GLGL!
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    EyemanEyeman
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    I agree again FFS!!!!!!!!!!!
    See, it's good to talk.

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    Ice_TigerIce_Tiger
    edited January 2015
    I think the teams are great.

    I suppose it depends which team you are in and how you are treated. Sometimes people have to leave a team because of their behaviour or their inability to accept the team ethos. That is hardly a problem because there are always other teams they can join or as a last resort they can start their own team.

    I really enjoy the team element of DTD & I think it makes it the most enjoyable night of poker all week. Whilst it is an individual competition, it was great to have a rail supporting me when I final tabled last Monday.

    Not sure what upset the OP but I think he is in a small minority.
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    justmartinjustmartin
    edited January 2015
    In Response to The Case Against Teams:
    . Think on this, would it have been any different if Sky had nominated teams, and DTD players were assigned a team randomly in order? Not only would it take away this hierarchy, but it would also mean that all teams would have roughly equal numbers (clearly some people would register with a team, then never or rarely play so slight inequities could exist over time, but that can be remedied when new players join).
    Sky poker randomly drop a river card, look what happens then if it doesn't fall inline with what players wanted, in some cases this sends people away from sky and all kinds of negative feedback....just sayin ;)
    But honestly, I used to be a gamer and joined teams for that, it's the best thing to do in my opinion and nice to have a choice who you are online socialising, gaming and sharing ideas with.

    Wouldn't dropping people in random teams be hierachy and control yet again, we are all adults on sky poker I think it's fair we make choices and enjoy it how we choose, I stick to being allowed to make choices :)

    I am pretty much an outsider here, but I wouldn't mind reading the sub-text on this one, interesting post.

    I think your outcome would be the hunger games of skypoker
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    HITMAN_RVHITMAN_RV
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    In Response to The Case Against Teams : Sky poker randomly drop a river card, look what happens then if it doesn't fall inline with what players wanted, in some cases this sends people away from sky and all kinds of negative feedback....just sayin ;) But honestly, I used to be a gamer and joined teams for that, it's the best thing to do in my opinion and nice to have a choice who you are online socialising, gaming and sharing ideas with. Wouldn't dropping people in random teams be hierachy and control yet again, we are all adults on sky poker I think it's fair we make choices and enjoy it how we choose, I stick to being allowed to make choices :) I am pretty much an outsider here, but I wouldn't mind reading the sub-text on this one, interesting post. I think your outcome would be the hunger games of skypoker
    Posted by justmartin
    Yup Nice Post!!
    People Have to Have Choices, I hope my Team have Choices, Fun, Sporting Ethic, Inclusivity & Equality of Voice, thats what we strive for despite several outside disagreeing, but thats another debate sry!!

    Subplot???

    You would not believe me if i told you All I know & experianced mate, LOL!!


    History....

    Well Heres a development Story in itself... in table form over nearly 4 Years!!!

    ...as said before, it was just a challenge between Me, My 7ish Mates in newly formed Sky HitSquad, & Don, Irene with already established TKP, about 14 in number!

    Many Changes, Teams developed, some faded, New Ones started..
    BUT THIS IS SKY HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!!


    RESULTS FROM START OF FORUM DTD TEAM LEAGUE!!!

    {Started by HITMAN_RV May 2011}

                    Champions            Runners-up
    May '11  Team Knightplop Team HitSquad
    June '11 Team PokerTrev  Team HitSquad
    July '11  Team 51             Team PokerTrev
    Aug.'11  Team PokerTrev  Team 51
    Sept.'11 Team 51                               Team HitSquad
    Oct. '11  Team HitSquad   Team 51
    Nov.'11  Team PokerTrev      Team Hitsquad
    Dec.'11  Team HitSquad        Team PokerTrev
    Jan.'12   Team PokerTrev  Team 51
    Feb.'12   DYM LegEnds     Team Hitsquad   
    March12 Team HitSquad     Team PokerTrev
    April '12  Team HitSquad  Team PokerTrev
    May 12   PokerTitans        Team Hitsquad
    June 12  Team HitSquad   PokerTitans
    July 12   Team 51                Team HitSquad
    Aug 12   Team HitSquad   Team 51
    Sept 12  Team 51            Team HitSquad
    Oct 12   Team HitSquad   Team Diamond
    Nov 12  Team Diamond    Team HitSquad
    Dec 12   Team HitSquad   Team Diamond
    Jan 13    Team HitSquad       Team 51
    Feb 13    Team HitSquad  Team Diamond
    March13  Team HitSquad  Poker Titans
    April 13   Team HitSquad  Poker Titans
    May 13    HitSquad Jams  Team Diamond
    June13    Team 51           HitSquad Jams
    July 13    HitSquad Jams  Team 51
    Aug.13    HitSquad Jams  Poker Titans
    Sept 13   HitSquad Jams  HitSquad Donks
    Oct 13    Poker Titans      HitSquad Donks
    Nov 13   HitSquad Donks      HitSquad Jams
    Dec 13    Poker Titans      HitSquad Jams
    Jan 14         HitSquad Jams  HitSquad Donks
    Feb 14     Poker Titans         HitSquad Jams
    March14   Poker Titans        HitSquad Jams
    April 14    HitSquad         Poker Titans
    May 14     HitSquad         Poker Titans
    June 14    HitSquad         Poker Titans
    July 14     Poker Titans     HitSquad
    August14  HitSquad         Poker Titans
    Sept 14    HitSquad         Dragons
    Oct 14      HitSquad         Outlaws
    Nov 14     HitSquad             Poker Titans
    Dec 14     HitSquad             Dragons
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    Jac35Jac35
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    Interesting OP Graham. I will Comment later on points as just busy earning a Living at present! Importantly TEAMS are Independant of Sky!! But if run well, Sky support their Aims for mutual benifit! Poker Team HitSquad, as Capo,  is a Hobby to me, & For Others, for Fun! [As I already Run, Own a Thriving Business Outside of Poker]. IMPORTANT FUN!!!!!!!!!!..I think Best that way!!! Now you have to work at anything to keep it Strong, stay Focused, Disciplined, Ethical, and after 4 Years, 150+Members, Much Success, including Winning The APAT National Team Championships, i think we doing something rite! The Monday Forum DTD has Dovetailed well, & been complimented by Teams, 80-90% of regged runnrrs are Team Players No! All to your Own.. Well-Run Teams will Flourish as current Ones are... Not so well Run Teams will fade away or Implode as has happened!! ....Laws of Human Jungle as Business' Or Footll clubs for instance. I Personally Try to Support all Other Teams that want it, as with FOSP etc, dispite what a minor few may imply! Wow, said more than i thought... Will add small points later. GL All!! Heil Hitman........Fack, Ooooppsss, just a slip I promise!!
    Posted by HITMAN_RV
    Can you expand on what you mean by this please David?
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    unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited January 2015
    Hi Eyman & all.
    Just to let you know, I am aware of this thread & will post my comments/thoughts when I have a more suitable opportunity.

    I have attended a funeral today & I can honestly say, there is nothing more important than family & friends. They are always there to support one another and imo the teams do exactly that.

    I will post more at a later date to address your issues.
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    HITMAN_RVHITMAN_RV
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams:
    In Response to Re: The Case Against Teams : Can you expand on what you mean by this please David?
    Posted by Jac35
    I'd Rather not, but it has nothing to do with Outlaws Mate, dont be paranoid, lol X

    2/3 Teams are not about any more & some only field  2/3 when they did field 15/20+ in past

    look at list above......

    Sad but Not Playing anymore, Diamond, Ninja Plonkers, others, etc
    Numbers well Down for Phoenix, 51, TKP etc, just stating Facts!!

    Outlaws are thriving, they must have come from good Stock, X
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