So many 'shove-monkeys'...?

swanstu

Is Sky the biggest for people just shoving their stack in (tourny, not cash I mean)?

Seems like so many sng players just want to push every hand, or many hands.

Why not play Roulette I wonder if that's how you play??

I know people will say, just get a good hand and call, then your AK gets ragged by the J7 they shoved with....

davelufc

Just get a good hand and call, then your AK gets ragged by the J7 they shoved with....

Tikay10

In Response to So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

Is Sky the biggest for people just shoving their stack in (tourny, not cash I mean)? Seems like so many sng players just want to push every hand, or many hands. Why not play Roulette I wonder if that's how you play?? I know people will say, just get a good hand and call, then your AK gets ragged by the J7 they shoved with....
Posted by swanstu

Well J-7 man wins that coup one time in three, & A-K man wins it two times in three.
 
Quite happy to lose 1 in 3 if I can win 2 in 3.

Embrace the maths, it is our friend.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

Is Sky the biggest for people just shoving their stack in (tourny, not cash I mean)? Seems like so many sng players just want to push every hand, or many hands. Why not play Roulette I wonder if that's how you play?? I know people will say, just get a good hand and call, then your AK gets ragged by the J7 they shoved with....
Posted by swanstu

Think of all the times they win the blinds when you dont have AK.

Add in the times they outdraw you when you do happen to have AK.

Starts to look like it may be a profitable way to play!

rainman397

Good afternoon Swanstu.
Try the £2.20 @2.20 deepstack no monkeys allowed.
All the best.
Rainman397.

swanstu

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

In Response to So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : Well J-7 man wins that coup one time in three, & A-K man wins it two times in three.   Quite happy to lose 1 in 3 if I can win 2 in 3. Embrace the maths, it is our friend.
Posted by Tikay10

Yes, but by playing and calling these monster shoves you massively increase the luck factor/variance in your game, something I try to reduce rather than increase.

swanstu

Thanks Rainman - yep, I agree that part of this is the format/stakes played, and maybe I should just be moving away from the HU games and more for the deepstacks. 

Benchmark

The shove-monkeys will lose out over time. It really is difficult to watch them steal your blinds, without you making a poor call. All you can do it play your poker. Most of them shove once too often anyway.

I way playing a game this afternoon, in which I put myself in a really poor chip position early on. The only strategy I had left was to shove each time the aggressive players had folded and steal the blinds. I had to do it with raggy kings, and queens with half decent kickers. The guy to my left was bleeding chips and in the end called my bluff with his own shove. That time, I had KK...

unknown_username

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

The shove-monkeys will lose out over time. It really is difficult to watch them steal your blinds, without you making a poor call. All you can do it play your poker. Most of them shove once too often anyway. I way playing a game this afternoon, in which I put myself in a really poor chip position early on. The only strategy I had left was to shove each time the aggressive players had folded and steal the blinds. I had to do it with raggy kings, and queens with half decent kickers. The guy to my left was bleeding chips and in the end called my bluff with his own shove. That time, I had KK...
Posted by Benchmark

its a good job it wasn,t qq

Tikay10

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : Yes, but by playing and calling these monster shoves you massively increase the luck factor/variance in your game, something I try to reduce rather than increase.
Posted by swanstu

Quite the opposite.

If we can get our money in that good every time, we can't lose.
 
Of course, we don't HAVE to call. We could do what he does & be the shover not the caller. We get better odds if we shove, because our opponents often fold, so that increases our equity.
 
People think (say) 10-10 v AK is roughly 50-50, but if we jam first, & they fold 50% of the time, that changes the maths completely.    

swanstu

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : Quite the opposite. If we can get our money in that good every time, we can't lose.   Of course, we don't HAVE to call. We could do what he does & be the shover not the caller. We get better odds if we shove, because our opponents often fold, so that increases our equity.   People think (say) 10-10 v AK is roughly 50-50, but if we jam first, & they fold 50% of the time, that changes the maths completely.     
Posted by Tikay10

But this argument is ignoring that the 'monkeys' will sometimes actually have a hand too. Guess what I mean is that you end up trusting to the entire board etc when you call pre flop. There's very little play involved, just like a RRoullette version on here, and I'd never consider playing those.

GELDY

Playing live recently I had a big stack and spotted a player who liked to min raise and see flops. So I would 3 bet large each time to knock him off. He got so upset about this he started to go on and on about how bad a player I was to the extent the dealer had to call the floor to give him a warning. 

PS we chopped it heads up

PPS day 2 of a superstack tournament and I hear someone on a nearby table complaining about another player. 

I'm not playing anymore. You are disrespecting us by playing hands like J3o. 

And yes the player being spoken about was my adversary from the other day.

Everyone can play how they like. It's how you deal with it that counts, and this "pro player" in the superstack clearly didn't understand that. 

Benchmark

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : its a good job it wasn,t qq
Posted by stokefc

I was in a game on Friday, I think. I managed to beat a guy holding QQ with JJ. Then later in the same game, my QQ held up against another JJ. Natch, all my other premium hands this weekend have got blasted, that's why I'm crying in my beer.

swanstu

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

Playing live recently I had a big stack and spotted a player who liked to min raise and see flops. So I would 3 bet large each time to knock him off. He got so upset about this he started to go on and on about how bad a player I was to the extent the dealer had to call the floor to give him a warning.  PS we chopped it heads up PPS day 2 of a superstack tournament and I hear someone on a nearby table complaining about another player.  I'm not playing anymore. You are disrespecting us by playing hands like J3o.  And yes the player being spoken about was my adversary from the other day. Everyone can play how they like. It's how you deal with it that counts, and this "pro player" in the superstack clearly didn't understand that. 
Posted by GELDY

Of course they can play how they like - but when you get all in after all in pre flop, then why do they bother and not just go and play bingo/RR etc...

GELDY

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : Of course they can play how they like - but when you get all in after all in pre flop, then why do they bother and not just go and play bingo/RR etc...
Posted by swanstu

but we don't want them to

We love players like this

Sure it's higher variance having them on your table 

But it's higher eV also

Jac35

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : but we don't want them to We love players like this Sure it's higher variance having them on your table  But it's higher eV also
Posted by GELDY

Why did you chop then?

swanstu

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : but we don't want them to We love players like this Sure it's higher variance having them on your table  But it's higher eV also
Posted by GELDY

High variance is fine is you have a HUGE bank to play with, but awful if not.

GELDY

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : Why did you chop then?
Posted by Jac35

He had more chips than me. 

I offered the chop and he accepted. 

More then one way to skin a monkey. 

GELDY

Skin a cat

Fish

Whatever

FeelGroggy

You'll be surprised how wide you should be shoving. Look at some push or fold charts and it'll blow your mind. 

For example on 10bb in the small blind it advocates open shoving this range: 22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q8o+ J3s+ J8o+ T4s+ T8o+ 95s+ 97o+ 85s+ 87o 74s+ 76o 64s+ 53s+

By shoving this range you are unexploitable, if your opponent calls too loose your making money and if he calls too tight then your making money as he folds too often and when he calls you can still win. Remember hands like 76s and 53s have 40-41% v AK and around 20% against a higher pocket pair. I would conjecture that these 'shove monkeys' are correct to jam J7o and will be making profit by shoving correctly. Factor in the chance of a bounty when called and you could theoretically jam a bit wider.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

You'll be surprised how wide you should be shoving. Look at some push or fold charts and it'll blow your mind.  For example on 10bb in the small blind it advocates open shoving this range:  22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q8o+ J3s+ J8o+ T4s+ T8o+ 95s+ 97o+ 85s+ 87o 74s+ 76o 64s+ 53s+ By shoving this range you are unexploitable, if your opponent calls too loose your making money and if he calls too tight then your making money as he folds too often and when he calls you can still win. Remember hands like 76s and 53s have 40-41% v AK and around 20% against a higher pocket pair. I would conjecture that these 'shove monkeys' are correct to jam J7o and will be making profit by shoving correctly. Factor in the chance of a bounty when called and you could theoretically jam a bit wider.
Posted by FeelGroggy

+1.

Also the opening poster suggests this may be a 'thing' that happens more on sky than elsewhere when in fact the 'shove monkeys' are less effective here due to the lack of antes. 

They win less chips when their shove gets through, and thereofore should in theory not shove as often. 

Elsewhere the incentive to win the pot is much higher as there are more chips in the middle pre flop to win. 

So in theory players will be shoving alot less on skypoker than they will be on other online poker sites and in live tournaments. 

FeelGroggy

definitely. the ranges i posted were for anteless poker, its even wider with antes. I only fairly recently learned how wide you should shove and I was shocked. I use it as more of a guideline, no point jamming the bottom of your range in a bh if the big blinds calling super wide for your head! If you push or fold correctly this range though it will make you money, no matter how weird it feels jamming J3s, T4s and 53s for 10 blinds.

Benchmark

TBH, I'm really starting to struggle with poker concepts. I know it's a recognised idea that you have to 'win the flips', but the more information I take on board, the more I think of tournament play as having ten coins lined up. If you flip them, and they all hit heads, you win. If one is a tails, you lose. No matter how good you are.

This is further ratified by players being advised that 'no matter what they did in a particular spot, they couldn't win'.

Naturally, you have to be a good player to get those coins down just to ten.

Or am I missing something ?

I hope so.

shakinaces

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : High variance is fine is you have a HUGE bank to play with, but awful if not.
Posted by swanstu

There's your issue right there then.

If you are playing games that you don't have a big enough bankroll for then yes, the high variance line is a lot more dangerous/frustrating as there is a much greater chance that you go busto due to bad beats before things even out (and you win your 2/3... which you always will over the long term with AK vs two random low cards).

Be comfortable putting more money aside specifically for poker, or play lower buy-in games until you have built a bit of a cushion up to protect against bad luck.

alex1229

It's ok swan, you go play elsewhere, leave the shove monkeys to us.

FeelGroggy

Aggressive play is crucial in tournaments, if you play too risk averse you'll mincash more often but won't win much and all the value is at the top! 

Benchmark, not all of the tournament is played with shallow stacks. The better players have more of an edge when deeper stacked and its possible to keep chipping up without even getting into flips, just by making good bluffs, reads and value bets. When stacks are shorter there is less of a skill edge and a lot more variance but a good aggressive player might only need to win one or two flips to go deep whereas a tighter one might need to win 5+, so the good aggro players goes deep more often. 

In poker so often you're gonna go broke to a better hand and do nothing wrong, if someone has kings preflop its not gonna be a mistake going to go all in, its just bad luck when the guy flips over AA. This is why there's a lot of variance and why some of the top players on this site have gone through 500 game streaks losing money.

In the hyper sng's where its a lot of push or fold I believe a ROI of 3% is considered good which goes to show how much variance there is in shorter stacked play.

Tikay10

Maybe the OP should consider playing some PLO or PLO8 - "shove monkeying" (as he rather unkindly calls it) is not possible in Pot Limit.

swanstu

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : There's your issue right there then. If you are playing games that you don't have a big enough bankroll for then yes, the high variance line is a lot more dangerous/frustrating as there is a much greater chance that you go busto due to bad beats before things even out (and you win your 2/3... which you always will over the long term with AK vs two random low cards). Be comfortable putting more money aside specifically for poker, or play lower buy-in games until you have built a bit of a cushion up to protect against bad luck.
Posted by shakinaces

I see what you're saying, but I'm not talking about playing a long way out of my bankroll - I play fairly low stakes sngs/hu games. I could afford a fair amount of buy ins at the level I play.

What I mean about variance is that it disrupts your results even over the longer term - true effects of that can take 10's of K's of games.

izzysteer

It is all about individual circumstances and playing styles. I wouldn't call early in a tournament, unless I have a solid read on the player/ detailed notes.  Middle; it depends on the action around the table, but late, unless they are Nitty McNit, I'm calling.

 From my experience, a 'panicked' or aggressive over shove 9/10 is AK, as people don't know what to do with the hand. 

IDONKCALLU

10 bb or less im shoving very wide especially blind on blind ok to shove any 2 harder to call gap theory n all that 

FeelGroggy

Its says somewhere in the mental game of poker that If there was no variance the better players would always win and the bad players would stop playing till only the most elite played so poker would turn into chess. variance is a good thing.
Izzy I don't know what stack size your talking about but I find it highly unlikely 9/10 times shoves are AK unless you've barely played :P Unless your talking about 60bb open shoves at low limits!