So many 'shove-monkeys'...?

stuarty117

You play hyper HU of course people are going to shove as stacks get shallow very quick.

Try playing regular HU you get much more play out of them and variance is not as high

MattBates

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : I see what you're saying, but I'm not talking about playing a long way out of my bankroll - I play fairly low stakes sngs/hu games. I could afford a fair amount of buy ins at the level I play. What I mean about variance is that it disrupts your results even over the longer term - true effects of that can take 10's of K's of games.
Posted by swanstu

You play HU hyper poker and you are surprised there is lots of shoving? Surely that's a fundamental part of the game?

FCHD

I can't see anywhere where the OP has said he plays "hypers". It was feelgroggy who first brought Hypers into the thread.

MattBates

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

I can't see anywhere where the OP has said he plays "hypers". It was feelgroggy who first brought Hypers into the thread.
Posted by FCHD

Maybe I am wrong on that but he plays HU and SNG games then complains about lots of all ins. Your not playing down the streets very often in these games. Even more so at lower stakes. 

Its like playing deepstacks and moaning that they go on for ages. 

swanstu

I should perhaps clarify a bit, I don't play many 'hypers' for exactly this reason - though at times. There's no need to shove all in every hand even in those though, at earlier levels for sure!

Also, I am referring not to players who sometimes use a 'shove all in', after all we all do sometimes. Rather those players who seem to barely use anything else, and I do see these.

As I admitted earlier, you are right that moving away from some formats reduces this issue, I know. Funny thing is I think I do ok at HU play, despite hating this aspect of it! I don't agree with some comments that shoving is so essential to playing especially when not a 'hyper' format, there's plenty of space in most of the games to move beyond shove/call.

But my initial question/observation was that more players on this site seemed to fall into this category. May be wrong of course, but seemed that way to me.

swanstu

To add why i used the 'unkind' term is that it would only really take a 'monkey' (or nodding bird) to play like that - shove, shove, shove....etc

hhyftrftdr

I really don't understand what the issue is?

swanstu

It was a question initially, and then a discussion of why this happens so much (on here was my question)?

Do you press all in about 4/5 hands in a tourny? I'd guess not?

percival09

how has this thread made it to the 2nd page?

Lambert180

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

how has this thread made it to the 2nd page?
Posted by percival09

Lol ^^^

And my comment has now taken it to a 3rd page

swanstu

The above replies being hugely beneficial to anything of course....

People rather moan about a post...but there were some better points earlier thanks.

Maybe some shove monkeys are too sensitive about the issue!

swanstu

As the question was queried - I guess my overriding question is why some people enter a non-all in tournament then proceed to only play all in?

You could just enter the lotteries?

swanstu

Sufficient, lol - Who made you the queen?

So, why do players who want to play all ins not just play lottery games then? If they want to just chuck cards in?

swanstu

Also find it amusing that a poker player would say that the issue of shove ranges and %'s is a trivial issue.

unknown_username

i must shove at least 10 to 15 times in a tourny i feel you have to to get a stack,they are the longer structures admittedly

hhyftrftdr

People pay the same entry fee as you, and they can play how they like. If you're struggling to combat players who move all in frequently, it sounds like you have the problem and not them.

swanstu

Why would this be trolling when I posted because of my playing experience against people shoving all in?

I thought I posted about playing poker, is that not allowed on here?

IH8UButler

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

Why would this be trolling when I posted because of my playing experience against people shoving all in? I thought I posted about playing poker, is that not allowed on here?
Posted by swanstu

Hi

To put it in poker terms if you are playing a heads up SNG vs someone shipping every hand from the start then you should be printing money. If you are talking a standard speed SNG then I would stick a range into poker stove which gives you decent equity and get the money in pre with that range vs their any 2. E.g playing top 10% of hands gives you 67% equity approx. over a big sample this =££££££. With hyper/turbo speed you will need to expand your range and your ROI will drop but your volume should be higher to even this out

The bonus is you don't even have to think just sit watching eastenders/homes under the hammer/Jeremy Kyle and laugh as the money rolls in while you mindlessly click call with your premium hands

One you have enough cash then move up stakes or play cash where this type of play will be much less common

***NB I don't play SNG's, values above are approx and rake at lower buyins may impact your ROI significantly, so DYOR. Also excessively watching Jeremy Kyle may cause you to shop at Heron Foods in the early afternoon, while wearing slippers and a dressing gown***

swanstu

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : Hi To put it in poker terms if you are playing a heads up SNG vs someone shipping every hand from the start then you should be printing money. If you are talking a standard speed SNG then I would stick a range into poker stove which gives you decent equity and get the money in pre with that range vs their any 2. E.g playing top 10% of hands gives you 67% equity approx. over a big sample this =££££££. With hyper/turbo speed you will need to expand your range and your ROI will drop but your volume should be higher to even this out The bonus is you don't even have to think just sit watching eastenders/homes under the hammer/Jeremy Kyle and laugh as the money rolls in while you mindlessly click call with your premium hands One you have enough cash then move up stakes or play cash where this type of play will be much less common ***NB I don't play SNG's, values above are approx and rake at lower buyins may impact your ROI significantly, so DYOR. Also excessively watching Jeremy Kyle may cause you to shop at Heron Foods in the early afternoon, while wearing slippers and a dressing gown***
Posted by IH8UButler

Thanks for that, I appreciate the post. At least addressing the question directly. Much sense there.

omm

First poker book I Ever read was a book called Kill Phil, it is a stratergy book for beginners advocating shoving your whole stack from various positions with a range of hands. The idea being it minimises the edge that better players have because they cannot play small ball through the streets (hence killing Phil). Of course eventually the shover will come unstuck so not a particularly great stratergy especially with better players being able to adapt quite quickly. That being said the book does give a handy groundwork for first timers as long as they do not get married to the idea of shoving constantly. Anyway worth having a read just for info purposes. 

OP should really be adapting his/her gameplay when faced with people shoving a lot, if everyone played poker the same it would be a very boring and predictable game. 

HENDRIK62

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

First poker book I Ever read was a book called Kill Phil, it is a stratergy book for beginners advocating shoving your whole stack from various positions with a range of hands. The idea being it minimises the edge that better players have because they cannot play small ball through the streets (hence killing Phil). Of course eventually the shover will come unstuck so not a particularly great stratergy especially with better players being able to adapt quite quickly. That being said the book does give a handy groundwork for first timers as long as they do not get married to the idea of shoving constantly. Anyway worth having a read just for info purposes.  OP should really be adapting his/her gameplay when faced with people shoving a lot, if everyone played poker the same it would be a very boring and predictable game. 
Posted by omm

+1

most that know me won't be surprised to learn I also read this book ;-))

swanstu

Thanks for that Omm - very interesting, I'd not read/seen that book.

swanstu

I think a lot of lower stakes players are influenced by the basis of that stategy you describe in that book - 'if I just shove here, then it makes it difficult for any players to use their ability'

izzysteer

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

Its says somewhere in the mental game of poker that If there was no variance the better players would always win and the bad players would stop playing till only the most elite played so poker would turn into chess. variance is a good thing. Izzy I don't know what stack size your talking about but I find it highly unlikely 9/10 times shoves are AK unless you've barely played :P Unless your talking about 60bb open shoves at low limits!
Posted by FeelGroggy

Bit patronising. 

This is just from my experience. I was actually talking early/ middle. 

I play most nights, at a range of limits. You assume people who buy into larger tournaments, always have more skill. 

They sometimes either have a horrific gambling problem, or watched the swaggering bell end on the poker stars advert and think "I'm in Vegas". 

Phantom66

Dear swanstu,

Why not sign up for the HU FA Cup tourney...

https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby?action=show_static&page=poker_community_forums&plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3a57795ac2-1793-4377-b4cf-e124b0f555f4Forum%3adf77f82c-151f-4bea-aae1-fb423dcae1faDiscussion%3a35a6ee34-0fb3-4efa-b29b-4f25ded2016c&plckCurrentPage=0

I expect it will be mostly shove-monkey free.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

.......xpect it will be mostly shove-monkey free.
Posted by Phantom66

Funniest post this month.

swanstu

Thanks fellas - I think I should copyright the term now.

Essexphil

In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:

Thanks fellas - I think I should copyright the term now.
Posted by swanstu

Better a shove monkey than a limp chimp

GELDY

playing live you often get the opposite issue. ie stacks of <10BB who think they can peel a min raise or min raise themselves when in the majority of situations they should be shove or fold. I'm often amused (easy I know) at how my live opponents often feel I'm the shove monkey when all I'm doing is committing myself when the hand is worth it. 

I guess they're the limp chimps of which Phil talks. (Ivan excepted ofc)

tomgoodun

Aggro rilla ftw 

Oil get mi coat