HUDs - a compromise?

Ice_Tiger

Still think that one of the greatest plusses of SKY Poker is that all HUDs are banned.

Maybe that is why a lot of players use SKy - the more level playing field.

Darkangel7

What's HUD am thick. 

unknown_username

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

What's HUD am thick. 
Posted by Darkangel7

Heres a HUD just landing after a bombing campaign against ISIS bots

https://youtu.be/opiqvfrMGuc

Ice_Tiger

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

What's HUD am thick. 
Posted by Darkangel7

Heads Up Display

Ice_Tiger

It provides you with loads of statistics on opponents, making decisions a lot easier.

Most poker sites allow HUDs but SKY doesn't.

Essexphil

I can see a benefit in using HUDs, as per this thread.

For all that, HUDs are IMO, cheating, pure and simple. Is it fair that only some players can see the hole cards of someone who has mucked their hand post-flop?

The only advantage people playing single tables is that they are actually watching the hands, whereas the person playing 30 tables on Stars can just bring every stat up when feels the need, so knows who 3 bets light, who is a TAG etc.

I don't blame players for using every advantage they can, but for me it is a bit like an athlete using an undetectable steroid...rant over!

Lambert180

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

I can see a benefit in using HUDs, as per this thread. For all that, HUDs are IMO, cheating, pure and simple. Is it fair that only some players can see the hole cards of someone who has mucked their hand post-flop? The only advantage people playing single tables is that they are actually watching the hands, whereas the person playing 30 tables on Stars can just bring every stat up when feels the need, so knows who 3 bets light, who is a TAG etc. I don't blame players for using every advantage they can, but for me it is a bit like an athlete using an undetectable steroid...rant over!
Posted by Essexphil

Sorry but when has this ever been the case? lol

If ANY hand gets to showdown (or villian chooses to 'show') then ANY player can go into the HH and find out what they had. It's exactly what you have to do on Sky, and everyone should do it or you're just giving up huge amounts of free info. Like if you bet river with top set and get called, it's pretty important to know whether villian called with bottom set, or TP, or 2nd pr, or bottom pair, or A high etc etc. and this info is available to ALL on every site.

It also aint cheating in the slightest, but that's a point for another day.

MattBates

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

I can see a benefit in using HUDs, as per this thread. For all that, HUDs are IMO, cheating, pure and simple. Is it fair that only some players can see the hole cards of someone who has mucked their hand post-flop? The only advantage people playing single tables is that they are actually watching the hands, whereas the person playing 30 tables on Stars can just bring every stat up when feels the need, so knows who 3 bets light, who is a TAG etc. I don't blame players for using every advantage they can, but for me it is a bit like an athlete using an undetectable steroid...rant over!
Posted by Essexphil

Comments like yours are really worrying as its putting out false information and makes rec players even more scared of HUDs and gives the impression HUDs do a lot more than they do. 

HUDs provide information on betting patterns etc, how that information is used is the key thing. Some players interprete the information badly and would actually do better without a HUD. 

TeddyBloat

"I don't blame players for using every advantage they can, but for me it is a bit like an athlete using an undetectable steroid...rant over!"

hmm steroids are illegal though and their use prohibited.

using a HUD on a site like stars is more like using the best running shoes you can afford.

and it is a better analogy as tracking software is insanely cheap [£100 or so, or a small stakes version for $£60] and readily available to all. having it wont make you a better player any more than having boss running shoes will turn you into a winning athlete.

stats only give a small piece of the jigsaw, most of the work is done away from the table.

i'd wager more players using HUDs are losing players than winning ones. i know from speaking to the owner of a training site that sells customised HUDs that he estimates most of his customers are losing players - and they represent a subsection of players willing to pay money to get better.

the fact that HUDs are cheap and widely publicised means regs and recs enjoy using them, they are not secret weapons used to crush games. they will confer a significant advantage to those willing to do off-table work, but  mild-to-little advantage to players who put little work in. for lots of players they lose with or without a HUD.

-----

edit:

rememebr tuffish was HUD'ed up in his infamous videos and he was a celebrated fish. he recorded those vids in 2009 or so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAQd9nFoRYk

as matt said many players will do better without stats to misinterperet

GELDY

Nice try teddy but I think the steroid analogy works better. It's just that on some sites it is legal to use them whereas on others like skypoker it is not. 

You've always needed running shoes to go running and it's obv whose got the fancy new ones whereas you can't look at someone and know if they're using steroids or not, and originally you could succeed at running without steroids. 

Now it's an interesting point of Ivans that without tools how can the community here spot the illegal use of bots and HUDs? How do we know if our waters have become shark infested of the illegal kind? Can we rely on skypoker to always find them? And if not, then how?

TeddyBloat

The point stands thought that HUD's do not represent an elite or advanced technology available and utilised by only by7 winning players against recreational players.

they are widely available, widely known, cheap and used mainly by losing players.

they are being represented as something that make an average player into a winning one.

the edge they provide is proportional to the off-table work done by the player, and the skill set of that player.

the idea that they are the poker equilivent of steroids is so far off the mark as to represent ignorance.

GELDY

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

The point stands thought that HUD's do not represent an elite or advanced technology available and utilised by only by7 winning players against recreational players. they are widely available, widely known, cheap and used mainly by losing players. they are being represented as something that make an average player into a winning one. the edge they provide is proportional to the off-table work done by the player, and the skill set of that player.

 the idea that they are the poker equilivent of steroids is so far off the mark as to represent ignorance.
Posted by TeddyBloat

but the points you've made are just the same for steroids! I can't see your justification for the bolded phrase at all.

they are both easily available supplements that provide the potential for the user to improve their results. And there are purists in poker who feel that HUDs go against the spirit of poker in just the same way as anti-doping authorities regard steroids as going against the spirit of sport.

sorry for the derail Ivan

Lambert180

There's a pretty huge difference.

Steroids aren't 'against the spirit of the game', they are against the rules and will result in disqualification/being banned

HUDs are perfectly within the rules on the sites where people use them.

A lot of people's dislike of HUDs sprouts from ignorance/a misunderstanding of what HUDs do/are. Lots of people think silly things like it's going to tell you if you should bet or not, how much to bet, what you should do with a FD etc etc. It doesn't tell you how to play any hand. 

When I'm playing on Sky, I know if someone is far too loose, and I can thus widen my value betting range and reduce how often I bluff, that's an adjustment I have to use my brain for to figure out what is the best way to adapt to this player. You have to use your brain in the exact same way on stars with a HUD to figure out how to adapt to players except instead of having a player pool of 1000 players where I know everyone, it's a player pool of literally hundreds of thousands, where it's almost impossible to get to know players. You could give someone who is clueless a HUD, they still won't know what necessary adjustments to make based on the information.

GELDY

maybe if we downgrade the analogy to 

HUDS being like performance enhancing drugs

(in general, ie including caffeine, vitamin pills etc)

and save the steroid comparison for some of the racier types of HUDs?

happier with that?

TeddyBloat

again it misses the point that HUDs in themselves do not improve performance. 

taking peformance enhancing drugs will by definition improve performance all other things being equal.

having a HUD will not improve performance unless you put a lot of off-table work into interpreting data.

knowing that villain flats 45% of hands v a minraise is not the same as knowing what that 45% of hands is likely to be, how often and how hard it hits a variety of board textures, how villains post flop ranges will affect your response, and what board textures are going to be more profitable to flat or check raise etc etc.

all that comes with intensive study away from the table.

again most players using HUDs are recreational players, most are losing players.

the analogy paints HUDs as being unfair, and giving an intrinsic advantage to players using them as opposed to not using them. they also paint them as esoteric technologies available only to elite or 'in the know' players. when they are openly sold, promoted, allowed in competition on 99% of sites, and all for a very cheap point of entry [3 x 20nl buyins for a lifetimes use].

as an aside my coach played the WSOP HU event and made a pen and paper HUD to note some stats. how far along the suplement>>steroid metric does that sit?

shakinaces

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

edit: rememebr tuffish was HUD'ed up in his infamous videos and he was a celebrated fish. he recorded those vids in 2009 or so https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAQd9nFoRYk as matt said many players will do better without stats to misinterperet
Posted by TeddyBloat

TuffFish should come out of retirement and join the Twitch revolution

Re: the above, I can't disagree with the main points from Teddy/Ivan/Lambert but if you inject steroids and then just sit on the couch surely you are not going to get faster. In fact, you'd likely just put on weight and get SLOWER at running as a result (similar to a lazy player using a HUD and potentially becoming worse/losing more at poker).

I'd love a basic tracker just for my play, don't even need to see oppo names in it, would just be so much easier for trying to identify spots I'm continually losing/winning in and plug leaks/do them more.  Appreciate it'll never happen on Sky though, because it'd have to be Sky built to avoid opening the doors to a whole array of additional software.

TeddyBloat

it just flags the futility of relying on analogies in nuanced debate: they are always imperfect and with flaws as if it matched a situation perfectly it wouldnt then be analogous, innit.

but if we do want tawdry analogies then for me HUDs are like a gym membership: cheap, legal, available to all and only of real benefit to those willing to work hard.

they arent cheating on  most sites, they do upset purists [and geldy would vomit if he saw what my grind looks like lol], but recreationals, regs, losing players and crushers all enjoy using them and have done for many years.

botting and collusion is a much bigger threat to online poker, and one that is genuinely and unequivocally unfair and illegal.

almost every major botting scandal, and many collusion scandals have been uncovered by players utilising their tracking software.

which is where ivan brought us in, i suppose.

percival09

anyone making reference to tuffish and posting a link deserves an award in my eyes. nice posts teddy! 

FeelGroggy

Yes some players can misuse and adapt badly to HUD's and play less optimally but they do give players an informational advantage and can be used to better exploit opponents. E.G a tight rec folds his blind 60% of the time and folds to a Cbet 75% of the time, information readily available tio hudusers which can be massively exploited by raising every blind and cbetting every pot vs the tight player.

There is no denying that Hud's give players an informational advantage and that decent regs will likely use this information to extract more profit.

Also I think that incoporating HUDs would attract a better standard of player to the site who could just mass grind using stats making it even more difficult for the rec's and making it less profitable for the existing regs.

If the site did bring in Hud's I'd 100% use one, but I personally like the fact that sky doesn't have them.

Also people commenting they adjust just by watching tables. There is no way you could 10 table and make opponent dependent plays without a HUD or existing knowledge but you could easily play 10 tables with a HUD and make plays based off people's numbers.

It definitely takes skill to use a HUD. Give it a clueless rec and it's like giving a tech novice a top end computer, they won't use it properly. Give it a tech wizard and he'll utilise it much better.

That being said Hud's can definitely help people improve their poker and consider different options with different hands. I would wager learning to use one would help improve anybody's game. Also it would make it easier to analyse hands.

F_Ivanovic

I don't know why there is all this talk of HUDs and whether they help or not since my suggestion in the OP wasn't about introducing an actual HUD - just the database that goes with it. So you can study away from the tables but it won't mean you can play more tables since you won't have the information readily at hand on the screen in front of you.

FeelGroggy

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

I don't know why there is all this talk of HUDs and whether they help or not since my suggestion in the OP wasn't about introducing an actual HUD - just the database that goes with it. So you can study away from the tables but it won't mean you can play more tables since you won't have the information readily at hand on the screen in front of you.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

I just scanned through the thread and gave my thoughts on some of what I'd seen although on reflection my original reply might have been slightly off the mark to what was being discussed lol.

I would definitely encourage your idea. Most rec's might not like the idea though as it will only benefit the players willing to put in the effort away from the tables.

FCHD

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

I don't know why there is all this talk of HUDs and whether they help or not since my suggestion in the OP wasn't about introducing an actual HUD - just the database that goes with it. So you can study away from the tables but it won't mean you can play more tables since you won't have the information readily at hand on the screen in front of you.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

If there is an interface to reading this data online, you can bet it would be 10 minutes before someone knocks-up something to be able to read the data while playing.

jakally

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

I don't know why there is all this talk of HUDs and whether they help or not since my suggestion in the OP wasn't about introducing an actual HUD - just the database that goes with it. So you can study away from the tables but it won't mean you can play more tables since you won't have the information readily at hand on the screen in front of you.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

I know you keep saying this, but, without being an expert on the subject, it is almost certain that as soon as you make any data collectable, it would be reasonably straightforward to manipulate this to make a HUD.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise? : I know you keep saying this, but, without being an expert on the subject, it is almost certain that as soon as you make any data collectable, it would be reasonably straightforward to manipulate this to make a HUD.
Posted by jakally

Exactly - it would, in effect, be an invitation for those so inclined to build a Heath Robinson HUD.

It's academic anyway, as I'd be extremely surprised indeed if Sky Poker ever went down this route, it flies in the face of a fundamental policy they hold very dear.   

Ice_Tiger

The analogy of steroid use falls down because steroid use is illegal. Make steroid use legal and it becomes a good analogy.

I would love to watch a steroid Olympics where runners do the 100 metres in 9 seconds and pole vault out of the stadium. Until then, I will just have to watch the big Sunday tournaments on Stars.

ajs4385

As an avid gym goer, mma fan, pro wrestling fan, steroids are the best analogy.

A hud enhances your ability to recall previous play to an unnatural level. Giving you an advantage over people who do not have them.

Just like steroids enhances ability to an unnatural level.

Steroids are not illegal btw. It is legal in this country to posses and use, just not to sell. They can also be legally purchased in the form of pro hormones. Or what is big in America now is TRT.

Steroids are common place in sporting events, hollywood, pro wrestling etc. Just like artificial aids are common place in poker.

Anyway, the bottom line is 3rd party software puts people off who spend money on poker. So why would anybody want them?

TeddyBloat

it also creates an armrace that is costly with no absolute benefit. 

i have about 10 paid for poker programs and few non poker specific programs i have apporopriated for poker use that i use near daily.

in game i have 6 programs running alongside the client.

all that is running to stand still alongside the regs in the player pool. 

would much rather not to have to do that. but you may as well wish that the sky was green instead of blue.

the geek in me would always want to have my PT4 though.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise? : I know you keep saying this, but, without being an expert on the subject, it is almost certain that as soon as you make any data collectable, it would be reasonably straightforward to manipulate this to make a HUD.
Posted by jakally

I posted a 'solution' on this earlier in the thread - that it would be Sky itself that would produce the database. 

I'm no expert on it either though; but I don't understand how it can be impossible to create a database or HUD now? I do know that someone created a HUD a while back but decided to sell it and Sky quickly found out about it. If it was possible then though I don't see why someone tech savvy couldn't do so now. In fact there may be someone out there who has created a HUD and we don't know about it.

@Tikay: I understand it goes against Sky's fundamental policy but my suggestion remember wasn't for an actual HUD. A database which you can't acess during game is slightly different. Do they have the same stance on that? I don't know.

But how else do you address potential fears from REGs about bots or multi-accounting? This is one idea I have to tackle that fear whilst simultaneously not going away from Sky's policy. If there is a better idea I'm all for it. But right now we're in darkness about it - not enough to not want to play on Sky; but that could change in 3/4 years time if the landscape changes and bots become more prominent. That's why it's something that has to be brought up early IMO.

Ludacris

It will never happen, sites in the industry are actively moving away from any type of tracking software. It would be a HUGE step back for Sky, ruining everything they have worked hard for.

jakally

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise? : I posted a 'solution' on this earlier in the thread - that it would be Sky itself that would produce the database.  
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Two points on this. Firstly, what benefit is there to SkyPoker for doing this?

Also, if you make data available, it makes it much more likely (inevitable?) that very clever, tech-savvy people, will be able to use this in a way that you don't want them to (HUD's etc...).

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise? :  I do know that someone created a HUD a while back but decided to sell it and Sky quickly found out about it. If it was possible then though I don't see why someone tech savvy couldn't do so now. In fact there may be someone out there who has created a HUD and we don't know about it. 
Posted by F_Ivanovic

This is true, but more difficult to achieve if you avoid the flow of data, and therefore less likely to be used on any widespread basis.

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise? :  potential fears from REGs about bots or multi-accounting? 
Posted by F_Ivanovic

If by REGs you mean full time players (Pro's) then they aren't the major concern. The key thing, IMO, is that recreational players feel as though they are getting a fair game. That's much more likely, if you avoid any add-on assistance. If you give data out, the Pro's will study it for hours, and the Rec's wont have time. The result of this is that the skill gap widens, and a recreational player feels as though they are at a bigger disadvantage.

As for bots. I understand them less than I do HUD's, which means I don't, but I would imagine it's easier to get a bot to play winning poker if it has a good flow of data.