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BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?

edited March 2016 in Poker Chat
Seems like a very silly thing to do to give other players free info. Smacks of inexperience to me. Fwiw I think it's out of order, but I'm not sure if it's "against the rules" as it is only his/her opinion. If I was in your position I think I would have retaliated in kind and shared info, just to teach the player a lesson and hopefully make them think twice before doing it again.


Did you take it down??
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Comments

  • edited March 2016
    Hi, I was on a FT of a M/E this week, and just when the FT table was formed, the following happened:

    I 3bet with QQ and everyone folded. I then showed the QQ.

    Then in the chat, one of the players that was on my earlier table said:

    "Don't trust StayOrGo, he only shows his good hands, he's bluffing all the time, do not be fooled by him!" (In capitals too)

    The statement was fairly accurate, I agree, as I do show more premium hands than bluffs. However, was it fair for him to point this out to the new players at the table?

    I had several notes on the player concerned. Stating that he rarely defended his blinds, he would often fold to C bets, and was generally "fit or fold" and he didn't C bet unless he hit.

    I felt an urge to share this information with the table, but realised that it would just have been childish retaliation, so I refrained from doing so.

    So my question is:

    Were his coments within the rules but bad etiqutte? Or was it fair enough?

    If his comments were "fair enough" would it also be "fair enough" for me to to inform others of his style?

    It's no big deal, I didn't lose any sleep over it. Mostly on Sky Poker, the players are very cordial, and he certainly wasn't rude. However is it right to inform other players of certain opponents playing style?

    Food for thought. Interested to see what people think. (No names provided to protect the innocent) :=)

    Cheers,

    Graham





  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETTIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
    Seems like a very silly thing to do to give other players free info. Smacks of inexperience to me. Fwiw I think it's out of order, but I'm not sure if it's "against the rules" as it is only his/her opinion. If I was in your position I think I would have retaliated in kind and shared info, just to teach the player a lesson and hopefully make them think twice before doing it again. Did you take it down??
    Posted by ShaunyT

    No finished 4th. Didn't get any bluffs through :=)
  • edited March 2016

    Its an attempt at collusion.



    Chat

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    We also ask that you don't chat about the current hand in any way which might give an advantage to other players. This could put some people at a disadvantage, and that simply isn't fair.

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  • edited March 2016
    Seems like a very silly thing to do to give other players free info. Smacks of inexperience to me. Fwiw I think it's out of order, but I'm not sure if it's "against the rules" as it is only his/her opinion. If I was in your position I think I would have retaliated in kind and shared info, just to teach the player a lesson and hopefully make them think twice before doing it again.


    Did you take it down??
  • edited March 2016
    Honestly - whats the big deal? You know your style, you must be aware a lot of players would pick up on this and you are good enough to deal with this on a daily basis. You just adjust and use it to your advantage. He has just given you the green light to value bet a lot more widely! 

    Im not having a dig, i know my tone may seem it. I just like to tell it as it is. Its just the same as someone saying "this guy is hitting everything at the moment" or "this guy calls everything!" etc. 

    PS. You need to double book a coaching session of HU play with Ric Orford, two 2nds last night! Just not good enough! ;)
  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETTIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
    Honestly - whats the big deal? You know your style, you must be aware a lot of players would pick up on this and you are good enough to deal with this on a daily basis. You just adjust and use it to your advantage. He has just given you the green light to value bet a lot more widely!  Im not having a dig, i know my tone may seem it. I just like to tell it as it is. Its just the same as someone saying "this guy is hitting everything at the moment" or "this guy calls everything!" etc.  PS. You need to double book a coaching session of HU play with Ric Orford, two 2nds last night! Just not good enough! ;)
    Posted by CraigSG1

    Thanks for the feedback Craig.

    Very true, I know most people know my style, so it's not a problem, however some of the players on the FT were not regs.

    It seemed to me that, they would identify my style in time, however this sped up their recognition of it.

    Yes of course, one can adapt, but should I have to change my approach/style because of comments made by others at the table?

    It's a grey area. Like I said, I lost no sleep over it, but thought it would be an interesting point for discussion.

    I would not do it to others, however is it a rules infringement or just bad etiquette?

    Re the heads up practice. Yes badly needed. I will be enlisting the help of Mr Orford very soon :=)

    Cheers,

    Graham

  • edited March 2016
    It is deffo bad ettiquette & is probably against the rules but rules aren't enforced unless someone complains.


  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETTIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
    It is deffo bad ettiquette & is probably against the rules but rules aren't enforced unless someone complains.
    Posted by Ice_Tiger

    Yes, it's a tricky one Tiger, I would be interested in someone from Sky's perspective on this.
  • edited March 2016
    In Response to BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
    Hi, I was on a FT of a M/E this week, and just when the FT table was formed, the following happened: I 3bet with QQ and everyone folded. I then showed the QQ
    Posted by StayOrGo
    Hi Graham,

    Could I ask WHY you would show QQ?  This is an aspect of poker that ( as a rec player) I can't get my head around. Every time I see players do it I shout at the screen... :-(
    Surely you are giving FREE information away? Why?  I'm NOT condoning the other players response BTW I'm just asking WHY?
     Pad


  • edited March 2016
    Hardly an issue
  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETTIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
    Hardly an issue
    Posted by Jac35
    Was that a reply to me?
  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
    In Response to BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? : Hi Graham, Could I ask WHY  you would show QQ?  This is an aspect of poker that ( as a rec player) I can't get my head around. Every time I see players do it I shout at the screen... :-( Surely you are giving FREE information away? Why?  I'm NOT condoning the other players response BTW I'm just asking WHY?  Pad
    Posted by Glenelg

    Hi Glenelg,

    In answer to your question:

    I occasionally show cards in the hope of creating an image that may assist me in future hands.

    I agree that one shouldn't do it too often.

    Any advantage gained from it is usually temporary, but can on ocassions assist in the short term.

    However, one does have to be careful, as good players can get a lot of information from it. So you have to be confident that the benefits out weigh the risks.

    This means a careful assessment of when you show and who's at the table when you do.

    So I am in the camp of, "It's OK to show now and again, for percieved tatical advantage, but never to brag"

    Also if you do this people. Glenelg is right, "HANDLE WITH CARE"

    Hope this answers your question.

    Cheers,

    Graham
  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
    In Response to BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? : Hi Graham, Could I ask WHY  you would show QQ?  This is an aspect of poker that ( as a rec player) I can't get my head around. Every time I see players do it I shout at the screen... :-( Surely you are giving FREE information away? Why?  I'm NOT condoning the other players response BTW I'm just asking WHY?  Pad
    Posted by Glenelg
    Smoke and mirrors ; )
  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? : Hi Glenelg, In answer to your question: I occasionally show cards in the hope of creating an image that may assist me in future hands. I agree that one shouldn't do it too often. Any advantage gained from it is usually temporary, but can on ocassions assist in the short term. However, one does have to be careful, as good players can get a lot of information from it. So you have to be confident that the benefits out weigh the risks. This means a careful assessment of when you show and who's at the table when you do. So I am in the camp of, "It's OK to show now and again, for percieved tatical advantage, but never to brag" Also if you do this people. Glenelg is right, "HANDLE WITH CARE" Hope this answers your question. Cheers, Graham
    Posted by StayOrGo

    Thanks for that Graham,

    Could I also ask...do you show the "7,2" hands occasionally? 

    BTW ... vee are makin notes Pike..

  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? : Thanks for that Graham, Could I also ask...do you show the "7,2" hands occasionally?  BTW ... vee are makin notes Pike..
    Posted by Glenelg
    Just my opinion but I'd say that would be a no.

    As he is a very aggressive player this would be detrimental to the image he is trying to create to unknown opposition by showing hands like QQ.

    By showing the QQ he is trying to say 'I always have it', or at least plant a seed of doubt in his opponents mind which will hopefully manifest when put in a tough spot by Grahams aggressive play.

    Atleast thats my read of it.
  • edited March 2016
       I was told when I thought I was being courteous by showing AA to a table fold.   " If we wanted to see your cards we would have called you."   Mm!  you have to expect a reaction ....... reluctant to show anything now.!
  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? : Thanks for that Graham, Could I also ask...do you show the "7,2" hands occasionally?  BTW ... vee are makin notes Pike..
    Posted by Glenelg

    I can recall two rag hands bluffs that I've shown, both live.

    The first one was a while ago, and was purely an ego, bragging thing. I later went out, surprise surprise, when my bluffs didn't get through. So I soon learned a lesson not to do that.

    The 2nd one that I recall was again live, in a GPS tournament in Stoke.

    I was on a very aggressive table and had to adapt my play accordingly. As a result, I was playing very tight and waiting for good hands. When I did 3bet, usually with premiums, they got instant folds.

    I was also the oldest guy at the table and couldn't get any action when I had the goods.

    There was one hand where a good young aggro player, looked over and saw it was me on the BB. He then raised. To me it looked like he thought I was a soft BB, so I decided to 3bet him with 82.

    He called the 3bet and the board came 3K3. I led out on the flop. He tanked and folded JJ. I showed the 82, not to brag, but to let the kids realise that I was capable of making a move. I've had several situations where my light 3betting has ended in tears, but on this occasion it worked out.

    It paid off as I later got called light when I had KK.

    However this was a unique situation, where I had been playing far more passive than usual. In general I don't show bluffs. :=)

    Cheers,

    Graham

    P.S. I hope you have made good notes on me now :=)
  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
       I was told when I thought I was being courteous by showing AA to a table fold.   " If we wanted to see your cards we would have called you."   Mm!  you have to expect a reaction ....... reluctant to show anything now.!
    Posted by goldon

    Hi goldon.

    My comments would be:

    1) Don't show to be courteous.
    2) Show only if you think it will give you a tactical advantage.
    3) Don't worry about how people will potentially react to you showing, you have a right to show or muck, regardless of how you feel it may be perceived.
    4) It helps to be equanimous to peoples reactions, as best as you can. Although full equanimity is rarely achieved, so just try your best to be as unshakeable as you can.

    Cheers,

    G
  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? : Just my opinion but I'd say that would be a no. As he is a very aggressive player this would be detrimental to the image he is trying to create to unknown opposition by showing hands like QQ. By showing the QQ he is trying to say 'I always have it', or at least plant a seed of doubt in his opponents mind which will hopefully manifest when put in a tough spot by Grahams aggressive play. Atleast thats my read of it.
    Posted by LmfaoAllin

    Pretty much right there James
  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETTIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
    Hardly an issue
    Posted by Jac35
    I hate to agree but this.

    Its nothing.
  • edited March 2016
    Why is this even a thing? you lost. anti railing happens. get over it and stop being a drama queen
  • edited March 2016
    I dont think 'its nothing'.

    The OP ask's us to put it into one of three catergories, it's certainly not against the rules so that leaves bad etiquette or fair enough.

    Which is obviously down to opinion.

    For me its a bit of both, if its not against the rules it has to be 'fair' enough but that does not stop it being very bad etiquette, imo.

    I think in that spot I would try my best not to retort (lol) and use this new found image to our advantage, tighten up and we may get a few extra light calls with value hands, after a few times surely they will be believing the dent in their stacks more than that of a disgruntled stranger and we should be able to revert back to our natural style of play.

  • edited March 2016
    I have to say I don't believe what I'm saying is against any T+C's at all its not affecting the current hand in play. the hand is already over. Just the same way you attempt to get edge by showing QQ to force folds, surely im allowed to talk to the table and say thats my thought's on what you are doing. fwiw I was under defending vs cbets due to knowing you were aggresive but never picking up anything past super weak sd, never had any combo draws or reasonable rebluff combos. And i don't particularly want to start a 3 bet 4bet war vs a winning reg when I have edge by waiting against the rest of the field.  I don't see any issue my saying that or saying wow he 3bets every hand.
     Anyway if someone from sky does reply and clarify i'd be glad to apologise / not do it again.

    Fundimentally we all play poker for fun or for profit, If its in the rules it ought to be allowed no questions. 
  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:
    I have to say I don't believe what I'm saying is against any T+C's at all its not affecting the current hand in play. the hand is already over. Just the same way you attempt to get edge by showing QQ to force folds, surely im allowed to talk to the table and say thats my thought's on what you are doing. fwiw I was under defending vs cbets due to knowing you were aggresive but never picking up anything past super weak sd, never had any combo draws or reasonable rebluff combos. And i don't particularly want to start a 3 bet 4bet war vs a winning reg when I have edge by waiting against the rest of the field.  I don't see any issue my saying that or saying wow he 3bets every hand.  Anyway if someone from sky does reply and clarify i'd be glad to apologise / not do it again. Fundimentally we all play poker for fun or for profit, If its in the rules it ought to be allowed no questions. 
    Posted by BarrattG1
    No problem Barratt, as I said from the outset, your statement was not at all rude or offensive. It's just the question of a "grey area" in discussing other competitor's playing styles at the table.

    I'm sure you did not do anything intentionally wrong, although how would you have felt if I had discussed your playing style with the others at the table, that had just joined us? Maybe it wouldn't have bothered you, I don't know.

    If I'd have said, "You can steal his blind, cos he rarely defends" for example. Would that be OK to you? I think it is NOT OK for me to say that, which was why I resisted.

    Anyway, I was going to leave it anonymous, so fair play to you for coming forward. I certainly do not harbour any grudge. It just prompted the question in my mind, as to how the "terms and conditions" of chat are interpreted.

    I certainly do not have an issue with what happened, and seek no retribution at all. The fact that you've explained yourself on here, prepared to apologise, shows your character as a player and a person. So respect due to you there.

    However, I would like some clarification, so we all know for future reference, about what is and what isn't acceptable, regarding the discussion of players styles, particularly on final tables.

    So would appreciate some feedback from Sky, for us all to know for future reference.

    Cheers,

    Graham

  • edited March 2016

    Back in the day I played on this account with a different nickname.

    Two guys decided to have an issue with me (I think after I stuck up for someone they were abusing) and they proceeded  to follow me around the table for over 3 weeks, telling people how they thought I played and what cards they thought I had.

    I ignored/adapted at first but it soon got so boring and I complained and sky's answer was they could not act on it because it wasn't against the rules but would change my alias so that it stops (I don't mind saying now, I am more grown up to deal with it.)


    (It does make me sad when I look at comparisons of my sharkscope results though, I was 65.9% ROI with my other alias playing only MTT's, and -9% now playing DYM's, although I think I am more in profit now because of taking advantage of promotions etc and being wiser, maybe I need to go back to MTT's lol)

  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? COULD SKY INPUT PLEASE?:
    Back in the day I played on this account with a different nickname. Two guys decided to have an issue with me (I think after I stuck up for someone they were abusing) and they proceeded  to follow me around the table for over 3 weeks, telling people how they thought I played and what cards they thought I had. I ignored/adapted at first but it soon got so boring and I complained and sky's answer was they could not act on it because it wasn't against the rules but would change my alias so that it stops (I don't mind saying now, I am more grown up to deal with it.) (It does make me sad when I look at comparisons of my sharkscope results though, I was 65.9% ROI with my other alias playing only MTT's, and -9% now playing DYM's, although I think I am more in profit now because of taking advantage of promotions etc and being wiser, maybe I need to go back to MTT's lol)
    Posted by MrWh1te
    Ahh, there you are, weve been  looking for you.
  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? COULD SKY INPUT PLEASE?:
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? COULD SKY INPUT PLEASE? : Ahh, there you are, weve been  looking for you.
    Posted by mumsie
    :)
  • edited March 2016
    hehe.

    This was back in the days when I was playing like the like of Scotty on microstakes, min buying in and doubling up loads. I learnt a lot from him
  • edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? COULD SKY INPUT PLEASE?:
    In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? : No problem Barratt, as I said from the outset, your statement was not at all rude or offensive. It's just the question of a "grey area" in discussing other competitor's playing styles at the table. I'm sure you did not do anything intentionally wrong, although how would you have felt if I had discussed your playing style with the others at the table, that had just joined us? Maybe it wouldn't have bothered you, I don't know. If I'd have said, "You can steal his blind, cos he rarely defends" for example. Would that be OK to you? I think it is NOT OK for me to say that, which was why I resisted. Anyway, I was going to leave it anonymous, so fair play to you for coming forward. I certainly do not harbour any grudge. It just prompted the question in my mind, as to how the "terms and conditions" of chat are interpreted. I certainly do not have an issue with what happened, and seek no retribution at all. The fact that you've explained yourself on here, prepared to apologise, shows your character as a player and a person. So respect due to you there. However, I would like some clarification, so we all know for future reference, about what is and what isn't acceptable, regarding the discussion of players styles, particularly on final tables. So would appreciate some feedback from Sky, for us all to know for future reference. Cheers, Graham
    Posted by StayOrGo
    As far as I am aware, Graham, it's not against any specific rules as such.

    Feels a bit dirty in some ways, but that's purely subjective. I'd be a shade miffed if it happened to me, but its not the end of the world.

  • edited March 2016

    A good friend of mine, Steve Jelenik, won a WSOP bracelet at PLO8 (& a quarter of a milly $$) back in 2010.

    2 years later, he & I shared a PLO table at the Wynn Summer Classic.

    Steve makes some very unorthodox plays, & several at the table started dissing Steve. Steve, as was his habit, said nothing, took no notice. 

    The dissing continued, & he was a friend, so I did what I thought was the right thing - I defended him by telling the table he was a WSOP Bracelet Winner, so a little more respect was in order. 

    At the next break, Steve came across to me & said "thanks for nothing, Tony".
     
    "Eh, what's up Steve?"

    "You blew my cover, Tony - nobody knew who I was, I was creating an image & you destroyed it by telling them I won a Bracelet".

    I felt pretty bad, & after that, I always kept schtum in those spots.
        
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