Micro Stakes

1281

Need a break from it. Play the 7.15 & 7.45 deepstacks most nights and basically the standard of play if awful. Try playing the correct way but its impossible to do so against players with no fold button. I know there's guides on here to crush the microstakes but sorry it doesnt make a difference if the player who has limp called your raise hasnt read the same book. Plus, my anger in chatbox is getting out of hand so think its time for a little break to recharge the batteries.

Itsover4u

poker is about adjustments mate... adjust to your enviroment and the players around you.

Playing an optimal strategy at these limits is not as effective as an exploitable strategy.

Exploiting bad tendancy's = £££

Best of luck

Danny

percival09

Itsover, slight error in your post: nothing is more effective than an optimal strategy... I know what you mean though, just had to point it out.

1281, perhaps try working on your own game before just slating the standard of play in a micro stakes tournament where players are just having a bit of fun. Also, be careful not to fool yourself too much. You might think you're playing well, but odds are if you're struggling to turn a profit in micro stakes games, and then bashing your opponents on the forum, you're probably not playing quite as well as you think you are. Good luck recharging the batteries. 

CATCH-22

7 45 ds is not as easy as u might think.  Invite all to come and try it

1281

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

Itsover, slight error in your post: nothing is more effective than an optimal strategy... I know what you mean though, just had to point it out. 1281, perhaps try working on your own game before just slating the standard of play in a micro stakes tournament where players are just having a bit of fun. Also, be careful not to fool yourself too much. You might think you're playing well, but odds are if you're struggling to turn a profit in micro stakes games, and then bashing your opponents on the forum, you're probably not playing quite as well as you think you are. Good luck recharging the batteries. 
Posted by percival09

By adjusting my own game against these players do you mean just limp with them, or start raising x5+ pre to hopefully shake them off. Not sure what stakes will currently play but I'd welcome you to try them out for a few days. With regulars who I've played with for years it's become something of a running joke the standard of play you deal with most nights. 

Itsover4u

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : By adjusting my own game against these players do you mean just limp with them, or start raising x5+ pre to hopefully shake them off. Not sure what stakes will currently play but I'd welcome you to try them out for a few days. With regulars who I've played with for years it's become something of a running joke the standard of play you deal with most nights. 
Posted by 1281

Min raise when opening

Limp pairs (only at these stakes) decent players will work out pairs to be a limp range

When you hit dont try and trap.... if they are as fishy as you say just lead out for 80% of the pot (if the board changes how strong your hand is slow down)

1281

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : Min raise when opening Limp pairs (only at these stakes) decent players will work out pairs to be a limp range When you hit dont try and trap.... if they are as fishy as you say just lead out for 80% of the pot (if the board changes how strong your hand is slow down)
Posted by Itsover4u

I'd never min raise 9's above because 90% of the time it'll just encourage 5 callers. Nice one for the reply btw. This whole post is just born out of frustration. Won the 7.45 sometime last week and seemed to be getting in a groove, but then get a table dynamic like I had last night and just makes you think why do I bother. I fully understand it's lame whinging about beats & certain playing styles but when it's almost every night it just becomes a tad sole destroying. 

aussie09

In Response to Micro Stakes:

Need a break from it. Play the 7.15 & 7.45 deepstacks most nights and basically the standard of play if awful. Try playing the correct way but its impossible to do so against players with no fold button. I know there's guides on here to crush the microstakes but sorry it doesnt make a difference if the player who has limp called your raise hasnt read the same book. Plus, my anger in chatbox is getting out of hand so think its time for a little break to recharge the batteries.
Posted by 1281

i don't know whether i can help or not.  here's my guess.  it isn't meant to be critical, but food for thought.  it is more likely to be wrong than right.  but it might be right.

it might be that you are a reasonably competent player experienced in traditional games and knowledgeable about things that were most important 10 years ago.  however, the game has changed.  you are still playing a test match style in a 20/20 match.  you may still be a competent batsman but you cannot succeed unless you strike out more frequently.  the small stakes you play has only magnified this change. 

you are still as good as player as you ever were, but you need to grow now.

good luck.

1281

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Micro Stakes : i don't know whether i can help or not.  here's my guess.  it isn't meant to be critical, but food for thought.  it is more likely to be wrong than right.  but it might be right. it might be that you are a reasonably competent player experienced in traditional games and knowledgeable about things that were most important 10 years ago.  however, the game has changed.  you are still playing a test match style in a 20/20 match.  you may still be a competent batsman but you cannot succeed unless you strike out more frequently.  the small stakes you play has only magnified this change.  you are still as good as player as you ever were, but you need to grow now. good luck.
Posted by aussie09

Thanks for the reply and I do know the angle you're coming from. Do I class myself a good player? Not really on the basis that after 5 years I'm still not crushing microstakes. But that said, on occasions when I play the DTDs on Monday when you come up against better players I more than hold my own, and on the fewer occasions when I've satellited into the roller and cashed. Personally I feel it's more leaning towards my mental attitude once I see what I hate at the table. Last night was the perfect example and again I know it's terribly bad form to complain about isolated incidents but when you're at 200/400 15/34 with QQ on the button after a limped pot.... 

Wait, before I explain what occurred someone tell me what play they would take. 

If I'm coming across as spikey in my replies I'm sincerely sorry. 

MattBates

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : Thanks for the reply and I do know the angle you're coming from. Do I class myself a good player? Not really on the basis that after 5 years I'm still not crushing microstakes. But that said, on occasions when I play the DTDs on Monday when you come up against better players I more than hold my own, and on the fewer occasions when I've satellited into the roller and cashed. Personally I feel it's more leaning towards my mental attitude once I see what I hate at the table. Last night was the perfect example and again I know it's terribly bad form to complain about isolated incidents but when you're at 200/400 15/34 with QQ on the button after a limped pot....  Wait, before I explain what occurred someone tell me what play they would take.  If I'm coming across as spikey in my replies I'm sincerely sorry. 
Posted by 1281

Whats our stack? Whats the limpers stack? What range do you put the limper on? What are the sb and bb stacks?

aussie09

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : Thanks for the reply and I do know the angle you're coming from. Do I class myself a good player? Not really on the basis that after 5 years I'm still not crushing microstakes. But that said, on occasions when I play the DTDs on Monday when you come up against better players I more than hold my own, and on the fewer occasions when I've satellited into the roller and cashed. Personally I feel it's more leaning towards my mental attitude once I see what I hate at the table. Last night was the perfect example and again I know it's terribly bad form to complain about isolated incidents but when you're at 200/400 15/34 with QQ on the button after a limped pot....  Wait, before I explain what occurred someone tell me what play they would take.  If I'm coming across as spikey in my replies I'm sincerely sorry. 
Posted by 1281

hi 1281.  my point is that the game is no longer what you want it to be.  all will be resolved when you apply your skill and experience differently in this new environment.



 

1281

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : hi 1281.  my point is that the game is no longer what you want it to be.  all will be resolved when you apply your skill and experience differently in this new environment.  
Posted by aussie09

Hi, Rob isn't it? 

Honestly I know we you're coming coming from but I'm a firm believer at those stakes min raise just encourages more action. Against a better player in different circumstances then absolutely. 

1281

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : Whats our stack? Whats the limpers stack? What range do you put the limper on? What are the sb and bb stacks?
Posted by MattBates

Matt, 

My stake: 13.4k

UTG+1 has me covered slightly 

Next: far less than me & average

Both blinds are regs and around my chip stack

Honestly re both limpers, any two cards. This was evident in some of the ridiculous pots they'd been picking up all night. 

1281

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : Whats our stack? Whats the limpers stack? What range do you put the limper on? What are the sb and bb stacks?
Posted by MattBates

Matt, 

My stake: 13.4k

UTG+1 has me covered slightly 

Next: far less than me & average

Both blinds are regs and around my chip stack

Honestly re both limpers, any two cards. This was evident in some of the ridiculous pots they'd been picking up all night. 

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : Matt,  My stake: 13.4k UTG+1 has me covered slightly  Next: far less than me & average Both blinds are regs and around my chip stack Honestly re both limpers, any two cards. This was evident in some of the ridiculous pots they'd been picking up all night. 
Posted by 1281

It sounds like these opponents are causing you all sorts of problems and making it hard for you to win.

Isn't that the aim of the game?

You are trying to figure out a way to beat them and their aim is to make it hard for you, not easy. 

1281

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : It sounds like these opponents are causing you all sorts of problems and making it hard for you to win. Isn't that the aim of the game? You are trying to figure out a way to beat them and their aim is to make it hard for you, not easy. 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Doh, if so they aren't doing it on a personal level, it's just the way some at this level but I don't need to tell you that. No doubt you've come through this stage. See it every night at this level, limp calling then you've either out bet them with the best hand, or slow down and wait for the pot sized bet on the river. 

thefa1lacy

You cant analyse these games too much. If a player has more chips than you, they'll be playing any old trash with no connection whatsoever. They got big that way in the first place, then they keep hitting and getting bigger, so they'll carry on with cards that make no sense to the board. 

Don't forget minimum wage is now £7.20 an hour unless you're a youngster. So £2.20 games are less than loose change these days to most. So don't expect poker strategy in these games when it's more likely they're just messing around.. 

chilling

Im thinking multi-tabling can cause some of these problems with bad calls and the like.I cant see how a player can play to their optimum with many tables open.It must lead to missing the table dynamics, with players coming and going.Im interested in why some of whom i know to be the best players on sky get busted early quite often.Taking all the analysis,strategy etc from Graham Carters ukpc thread, how is it possible to apply his thoughts to online poker, with far less time to act.I was told multi-tabling allows you to play the better hands, but in Grahams thread good hands are often irrelevant as there are so many other factors to think about.I am talking mtts though.

1281

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

Im thinking multi-tabling can cause some of these problems with bad calls and the like.I cant see how a player can play to their optimum with many tables open.It must lead to missing the table dynamics, with players coming and going.Im interested in why some of whom i know to be the best players on sky get busted early quite often.Taking all the analysis,strategy etc from Graham Carters ukpc thread, how is it possible to apply his thoughts to online poker, with far less time to act.I was told multi-tabling allows you to play the better hands, but in Grahams thread good hands are often irrelevant as there are so many other factors to think about.I am talking mtts though.
Posted by chilling

QQ vs limped 1010 and the limp was intended to trap as he'd done it 99.9% of the hands he played for the 2+ hours I was sat with him. 2's my limit by the way, tried 3 and couldn't cope. 

chilling

I meant you could get bad calls and play from players who have too many tables open and cant cope, as you have already stated.Although to this specific hand it may not apply.You will never know how many tables your opponents have open as they include other sites.

1281

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

Im thinking multi-tabling can cause some of these problems with bad calls and the like.I cant see how a player can play to their optimum with many tables open.It must lead to missing the table dynamics, with players coming and going.Im interested in why some of whom i know to be the best players on sky get busted early quite often.Taking all the analysis,strategy etc from Graham Carters ukpc thread, how is it possible to apply his thoughts to online poker, with far less time to act.I was told multi-tabling allows you to play the better hands, but in Grahams thread good hands are often irrelevant as there are so many other factors to think about.I am talking mtts though.
Posted by chilling

QQ vs limped 1010 and the limp was intended to trap as he'd done it 99.9% of the hands he played for the 2+ hours I was sat with him. 2's my limit by the way, tried 3 and couldn't cope. 

weecheez1

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : QQ vs limped 1010 and the limp was intended to trap as he'd done it 99.9% of the hands he played for the 2+ hours I was sat with him. 2's my limit by the way, tried 3 and couldn't cope. 
Posted by 1281

you said you knew he was trapping you were right you lost the hand but i think you would be happy to play qq against 1010 everytime if you are getting upset with the way people play that might cause you to play differant your read was good your luck was bad

MattBates

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

Im thinking multi-tabling can cause some of these problems with bad calls and the like.I cant see how a player can play to their optimum with many tables open.It must lead to missing the table dynamics, with players coming and going.Im interested in why some of whom i know to be the best players on sky get busted early quite often.Taking all the analysis,strategy etc from Graham Carters ukpc thread, how is it possible to apply his thoughts to online poker, with far less time to act.I was told multi-tabling allows you to play the better hands, but in Grahams thread good hands are often irrelevant as there are so many other factors to think about.I am talking mtts though.
Posted by chilling

Its not about playing to your optimum on one table its about playing with the table count that gives you the best hourly. Say 1 tabling gives you a 50% ROI and adding another table drops this down to 40% it is worth adding the extra table in as we make more money and  ith the vast experience some players have (say 20k+ MTTs played online) a lot of decisions are fairly easy. These players are used to multi tabling, keeping an eye on dynamics etc. They wont make perfect decisions, whilst we strive for this we dont need to do this to win MTTs. 

Also you are comparing a live £1k tournament to online games which isnt a fair comparison. 

MattBates

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

You cant analyse these games too much. If a player has more chips than you, they'll be playing any old trash with no connection whatsoever. They got big that way in the first place, then they keep hitting and getting bigger, so they'll carry on with cards that make no sense to the board.  Don't forget minimum wage is now £7.20 an hour unless you're a youngster. So £2.20 games are less than loose change these days to most. So don't expect poker strategy in these games when it's more likely they're just messing around.. 
Posted by thefa1lacy

Of course you can analyse play. It might be some play doesnt make sense but its about thinking one level above your opponent. If your opponent wont fold one pair, dont bluff them. Make a hand and value bet bigger than normal. Part of poker is about assigning ranges and acting accordingly. 

MattBates

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : Matt,  My stake: 13.4k UTG+1 has me covered slightly  Next: far less than me & average Both blinds are regs and around my chip stack Honestly re both limpers, any two cards. This was evident in some of the ridiculous pots they'd been picking up all night. 
Posted by 1281

Also need to know about their post flop tendencies, will they hit one pair and go mad. Are they passive post flop? Also are they limping and calling any raise pre? I would have thought 5x pre would be about where I would go after 2 limpers but depends on so many factors. If they are limp calling wide pre and only betting when they hit we can play a wide range and it only matters about our cards when they hit the flop. So you can laydown post when they show strength unless we have hit big as we win enough chips on the ocassions when they miss. 

chilling

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : Its not about playing to your optimum on one table its about playing with the table count that gives you the best hourly. Say 1 tabling gives you a 50% ROI and adding another table drops this down to 40% it is worth adding the extra table in as we make more money and  ith the vast experience some players have (say 20k+ MTTs played online) a lot of decisions are fairly easy. These players are used to multi tabling, keeping an eye on dynamics etc. They wont make perfect decisions, whilst we strive for this we dont need to do this to win MTTs.  Also you are comparing a live £1k tournament to online games which isnt a fair comparison. 
Posted by MattBates

Im sure, and i know, that there are players with several tables open that are not looking at ROI% specifically, but are just playing their games.

The difference between a pro and a rec i suppose.This thread refers to micro stakes though where you are unlikely to find a pro.Also the league players wont be interested too much in ROI% as they are playing for points, whilst multi-tabling.Although points and cash come hand in hand.

1281

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : Also need to know about their post flop tendencies, will they hit one pair and go mad. Are they passive post flop? Also are they limping and calling any raise pre? I would have thought 5x pre would be about where I would go after 2 limpers but depends on so many factors. If they are limp calling wide pre and only betting when they hit we can play a wide range and it only matters about our cards when they hit the flop. So you can laydown post when they show strength unless we have hit big as we win enough chips on the ocassions when they miss. 
Posted by MattBates

Matt, I went x5 pre and got one caller who was utg+1. Flop comes 7K2 rainbow. He checks which means he's not hit the King because he's donk lead when hit top pair previously. I've bet x5 again with he snaps off immediately. Turn comes a Jack to which he checks again. I bet 3/4 pot which looking back was probably a mistake with what I'd left behind, but again he snap calls. River comes 10 to which he checks again. I push he calls. He limped pre with 1010. 

unknown_username

Karim,that table was very laggy , i find waiting for a good hands then betting bigger pre is optimal against lag players at micro stakes and knowing there style and range which is pretty wide also helps slightly

when they bet big you know they,ve hit big you fold , when they min bet the flop re-raise big most of the time they will fold, when you hit big ramp the pot up cuz you know they will come along with 2nd or 3rd pair

i know where your coming from tho m8 when they limp call and the boards pretty dry you can,t help thinking they have that two pair cuz they call with a2c you just have to try and minimise your losses in those spots but punish them when you have the big hand

you,re a good low stakes player Karim you just have to stick at it and your time will come again

gl brother.Sean

1281

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

Karim,that table was very laggy , i find waiting for a good hands then betting bigger pre is optimal against lag players at micro stakes and knowing there style and range which is pretty wide also helps slightly when they bet big you know they,ve hit big you fold , when they min bet the flop re-raise big most of the time they will fold, when you hit big ramp the pot up cuz you know they will come along with 2nd or 3rd pair i know where your coming from tho m8 when they limp call and the boards pretty dry you can,t help thinking they have that two pair cuz they call with a2c you just have to try and minimise your losses in those spots but punish them when you have the big hand you,re a good low stakes player Karim you just have to stick at it and your time will come again gl brother.Sean
Posted by stokefc

Cheers Sean. No doubt I'll be playing the DTD's tonight. With the chat box most definitely switched off!!!

chilling

I think your hand thats posted is just an example of players that get attatched to their hand and are unlikely to fold at any cost.I find when i do the odd bit of railing at lower buyins, these type of outcomes occur frequently.Thats why i disagree with some players opinions on online poker being 60%skill and40%luck. These type of outcomes are the ones you should suck up and move on, as they are likely to happen again.

MattBates

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes:

In Response to Re: Micro Stakes : Matt, I went x5 pre and got one caller who was utg+1. Flop comes 7K2 rainbow. He checks which means he's not hit the King because he's donk lead when hit top pair previously. I've bet x5 again with he snaps off immediately. Turn comes a Jack to which he checks again. I bet 3/4 pot which looking back was probably a mistake with what I'd left behind, but again he snap calls. River comes 10 to which he checks again. I push he calls. He limped pre with 1010. 
Posted by 1281

Hand looks fine although In am not sure what calls 3 streets so maybe check river. 

In summary, our opponent will often play sub optimally but it doesnt mean they cant hit their outs. You cant win 100% of the time an opponent plays badly. In fact you want bad plays to be rewarded so our opponents do it again! Dont be results orientated and look at any hand in islocation.