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Course, if it comes all high, he looks rather silly in hindsight & you can sit atop a game winning stack, & we'd not be discussing the play.
Interesting, isn't it?
I know I had a very similar hand against you last night and bust your aces with a 2-6 straight but I think in that one you opened on my BB, I flat called, you cbet the flop and I shoved and possibly hit the 2-6 on the turn. This doesn't look on the surface like one of my efforts.
My memory may be clouded and this may have been me, either way...
I don't like the play all that much to be honest.
Firstly from your perspective. I don't think you put a foot wrong. While you are not short, you soon will be if you were to fold hands of this strength. For all you know you have fold equity and there is plenty change in the middle to pick up. I think you have to make it very clear by your bet sizing you are committed which you have done by potting it. IMO you have played it text book and to be critical of your play is to move too much towards being results orientated. It is just one of those things that you haven't held up on this individual occasion.
From opponents perspective. Again I am not certain if this is me or not but I am willing to remain entirely objective with the analysis either way. If you/anyone is ever posting a hand involving me please feel free to leave my name in. It won't cloud my judgement of the hand and I am happy enough to have my play flamed or praised, good or bad I have no problem with this
While there is a place for mini-raising and it is not terrible to mini-raise here I don't think it is the best amount to open here. We really don't want to be raise/folding much pre-flop here due to the odds we are creating because as Tikay said it is likely we wont have the worst odds in the world to just 'go with it'. The mini-raise to 400 is almost inviting a 3bet and as mentioned above we do not want to be raising 25% of our stack and folding pre-flop here very often so I think this has to be made clear by the opening bet size which should be 600 or 700 IMO. When the open is to 600-700 we can IMO more comfortably call the 3bet and play for stacks as we have created better odds to continue with the hand.
With a 1920 stack there is a case at least for just folding pre-flop. If the opener has reasoning behind the open then I think it is also fine to open raise but the opening bet size should be a little higher IMO.
So as played if this was indeed me, which I am really unsure whether it was, then I must have been struggling to keep up with play and got the opening bet size wrong IMO and this was skating very close to the margins.
With Tikay in the BB here and these stack sizes I think the mini-open creates a perfect 3betting opportunity at least on the surface. Tikay is such a highly proficient OH8 player who will quickly adjust his ranges versus opponents who get out of line. I would be expecting quite a wide 3bet range here with a mini-open preflop on his BB so again if this was me then I got the opening bet size wrong.
^^^^
Hi Mark - happy to confirm it was NOT you.
I am struggling a bit to see the merits of the play, too, but to be fair, Villain is very competent, & has a very good win rate over a decent sample size.
Anyway, as you said, the main thing Paul can take on board is that he did nothing wrong. He can't control what others do, all he can do is play his hands optimally, & the maths will take care of the rest.
CORRECTION
Just realised, seeing Marky's post, that Paul min-raised pre.
Think that was a mistake, & may have been what caused the whole problem.
I know some folks min-raise big hands in this spot to "induce", but with ranges running so close in O8, I'm not sure I like that.
Aces at 100-200, I'm making it 600 or 700 every time, happy to pick up the money in the middle. I mean, do we REALLY want a caller in O8? In NLH, yes, in O8 taking it down pre is often better.
I UNCORRECT my INCORRECT CORRECTION.
Given that xxx made the min-raise, it makes it all the more odd.
Incidentally, the Villain here has that min-raise as his standard MO - he does it almost every hand, but generally folds to pre-flop pressure. He's a relentless min-raise opener, & a perfect pain to have sat either side. I 3 bet him several times last night & he quickly let go, but I went to the well once too often & on that occasion he had the world.
I think the problem is that if the opener intends to call a 3bet and get stacks in then the opener is creating an at best flip situation and almost inviting action. P.S. If the opener intends to fold to a pot 3 bet then the mini-raise open makes much more sense. I just personally struggle to open raise/fold such a high percentage of my stack.
If I had the 23xx hand I would be opening for more preflop to avoid 'going to war'. I think the miniraise just invites a 3bet or a flat call and encourages added post flop play where we may end up having to play for stacks more often. The bigger raise preflop would be to take the chips uncontested. Obviously the 'drawback' of the bigger raise is that we really kind of have to call a 3bet shove due to the odds but I would be surprised if the 600-700 opening raise wasn't generally a more +ev play than the miniraise open due to the higher rate of preflop folds we will get.
I would agree though, I think I am folding this exact spot preflop most of the time with the given table dynamics.
P.S. I know it isn't actually a flip so to speak, just generalising.
Personally I think it is good to consider what we would do from all perspectives. The more angles we consider a hand from the more we can learn IMO. I certainly can't see any way it would be harmful to put ourselves in either players shoes and consider the play.
"What hands are we happy for the opponent to call with that they open from that position?
I think the objective is to apply maximum pressure to get the preflop fold and the 700 chips in the middle into our stack. Irrespective of what position they open from the fact we have two aces in our hand makes it unlikey (still possible obviously) that our opponent has two aces. Thus we do dominate a lot of possible calling ranges and in the eventuality we are called we know we cannot be in too bad shape. Even if opponent has the other two aces it is not a disaster, he may not have low cards at all and even if he does we have 2 nut flush draws. So while we may not want to be called we have to IMO apply maximum pressure to get the 700 chips from the middle, safe in the knowledge that if we go to war we are reasonably well armed.
How often do they fold?
Depends on the player. Tikay mentioned this player has folded to pressure preflop in the form of 3 bets which only strengthens the case for potting it. While I personally do not like raising roughly a quarter of my stack and folding preflop (hence I would not mini-open here), plenty players do. I think we have to assume we have some sort of fold equity here until the opponent or information available shows otherwise.
"Is there enough room post flop for us to call and play?"
I would say playing AA7Q postflop, by flat calling, to a level where we get reasonable value is extremely difficult and would require, in general, some very crisp reads postflop (unless we are only playing to hit boats and flushes) which IMO would risk being spewy.
"I think if we pot this it's as a kind of semi bluff and we can't be too despondent if we end up with a small slice or none of the pot at all."
I really don't see how it is any kind of bluff. IMO we are stating or at least representing exactly what we have, some sort of AA hand. Almost to the point we are playing our hand face up.
The more angles we consider a hand from the more we can learn IMO.
I know what you are getting at but for me a bluff is representing something which you do not have. In this case I think we are representing exactly what we have.
"the fact we have two aces in our hand makes it unlikey (still possible obviously) that our opponent has two aces. Thus we do dominate a lot of possible calling ranges
I feel there are plenty hands we dominate and don't think we are 'bad shape' against 2 card low combos. Might not be ideally what we want to see but not a disaster. If AA7Q is towards the "bottom of our percieved range here" I think 23xx has to be so near the bottom of our opponents range that we have to assume they have some sort of one ace hand (which we dominate at least to an extent by having two of the aces in out hand).
Thanks for your comments and opinions.
Just to clarify I didn't play it as a semi bluff, I thought I was ahead (for reasons already given) and when villain turned up with the hand he did I was genuinely surprised that a player as good as him had called me with his hand, given his relative chip stack, thus showing my shortcomings I suppose.
I genuinely believed I 'dominated' most other hands here (obviously using 'dominated' loosely as we are rarely that far ahead on PLO8). No I didn't have a good low, but I did have a damn good high holding and was repping a strong low too, so maybe I was bluffing that part, though not intentionally! So you're right about it being the lower part of my range for making that reraise, it was.
I know I virtually turned my hand face up but, other than folding, I don't think I could play it any other way. Interestingly no one has yet said that I should fold pre. I did consider that.
Thanks again for your comments.