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Happy Days returns.........

edited December 2016 in Poker Chat

Tomorrow, for 3 straight days.

It starts at 00.01 on Wednesday & runs through until 23.59 on Friday, so 72 hours of 2X Points on Cash Games & SNG's.
«13

Comments

  • edited December 2016
    Can you explain the logic of these promotions please?

    I understand how they're good for you guys as it encourages everyone to load up more tables and pay more rake but for players, especially recreational microstakes players, they are pretty terrible.

    All that happens from their perspective is they play in games where the regs:seat ratio is even less favourable than usual for them and they lose their money faster without benefitting much at all from the increased points they earn.

    I long for the day a poker site runs a promotion that actually benefits lowish volume recreational players that encorages them to deposit and increases their enjoyment of the game.

    Double points promotions, etc are just thoughtless lazy cash grabs that only benefit those that are already doing pretty well.
  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    Can you explain the logic of these promotions please? I understand how they're good for you guys as it encourages everyone to load up more tables and pay more rake but for players, especially recreational microstakes players, they are pretty terrible. All that happens from their perspective is they play in games where the regs:seat ratio is even less favourable than usual for them and they lose their money faster without benefitting much at all from the increased points they earn. I long for the day a poker site runs a promotion that actually benefits lowish volume recreational players that encorages them to deposit and increases their enjoyment of the game. Double points promotions, etc are just thoughtless lazy cash grabs that only benefit those that are already doing pretty well.
    Posted by The--Don
    Now I've heard it all

  • edited December 2016
    So a microstakes rec player who normally gets 50pts a week can get a £2.30 token for the same volume and outlay. How is that not good for them?
  • edited December 2016
    Maybe Sky should double the rake so the regs:seat ratio is more favourable.
  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    Maybe Sky should double the rake so the regs:seat ratio is more favourable.
    Posted by jordz16
    Isn't that Stars new promotion?
  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : Isn't that Stars new promotion?
    Posted by Sky__James
    Please don't mention other sites, this post will be removed as breaches the terms and conditions

    Thanks 
  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    So a microstakes rec player who normally gets 50pts a week can get a £2.30 token for the same volume and outlay. How is that not good for them?
    Posted by Phantom66

    They lose their money quicker because they're in tougher games. Therefore, they most likely pay less rake than usual.

    All this promo does for recreational players is increase the speed at which they lose their money.

  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    Maybe Sky should double the rake so the regs:seat ratio is more favourable.
    Posted by jordz16

    They should reduce the rewards to regulars and find ways to redistribute the savings to the recreational players in a meaningful way.

    I'm with Negreanu on this one. If there are rewards to be given out by sites, they should be to the net depositing players, not the winning players.

  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : They should reduce the rewards to regulars and find ways to redistribute the savings to the recreational players in a meaningful way. I'm with Negreanu on this one. If there are rewards to be given out by sites, they should be to the net depositing players, not the winning players.
    Posted by The--Don

     Oh god here we go.....

    Daniel negranu is a scumbag who has sold his beliefs for a bag of cash....


  • edited December 2016
    Maybe sky could promise there players rewards then a week before paying them say that promotion has been withdrawn.... in all honesty you don't deserve to play on a site as well run as this.

    I hear ultimate bet are making a comeback you could go there?
  • edited December 2016

    I fear there is little point in debating this one, but The Don's perception of what happens in a Points Promo is flawed in my opinion. Very flawed.

    Players don't move up or down the levels (buy-ins, stakes), they remain at their normal level, but play more games.

    I can't think of a single reason why a player who usually plays, say, £22 or £55 SNG's would suddenly move down to £2.20 or £5.50 due to a Points Promo.

    The logical likelihood is they would move UP not down. 

    IMO, of course.
     
  • edited December 2016
    If players arent good enough they will lose their money eventually anyway, but the chance for them to earn some extra rewards money cant be a bad thing, I highly doubt many losing players will be doubling the tables they play and hours they put in just for this promotion.. 
  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... :  Oh god here we go..... Daniel negranu is a scumbag who has sold his beliefs for a bag of cash....
    Posted by Itsover4u

    Irrespective of your opinion of him, he probably knows more about this subject that you.

    Redirecting rewards from winning players to losing players is better for the ecosystem than rewarding high volume players by giving them the lions share of the money put aside for promotions.

    For far too long, poker has taken losing players for granted. Regs do absolutely nothing to improve a losing players experience and sites don't do much either. This is why globally, poker is in decline. We need to treat losing players much better and stop pandering to the winning players as much as we currently do.

    I'm not suggesting Sky follow the model of reducing rewards and keeping them for themselves like several high profile sites have done. I'm suggesting they just distribute the rewards in a way that keeps the games going by putting most of the rewards back into the accounts of those that lose the most.

  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : Irrespective of your opinion of him, he probably knows more about this subject that you. Redirecting rewards from winning players to losing players is better for the ecosystem than rewarding high volume players by giving them the lions share of the money put aside for promotions. For far too long, poker has taken losing players for granted. Regs do absolutely nothing to improve a losing players experience and sites don't do much either. This is why globally, poker is in decline. We need to treat losing players much better and stop pandering to the winning players as much as we currently do. I'm not suggesting Sky follow the model of reducing rewards and keeping them for themselves like several high profile sites have done. I'm suggesting they just distribute the rewards in a way that keeps the games going by putting most of the rewards back into the accounts of those that lose the most.
    Posted by The--Don

    Interesting points there. It is good to have opinions on here, albeit you will prob get the forum police jump on your case. Sometimes we are not allowed a debate on this forum.

    A lovely example of rewarding the rich and punishing the poor (ignoring the rake %) is that a recent winner of a high buy in event was awarded another buy in for another event....whereas a player who had free rolled into the same event, and had aces cracked on the pure bubble, got nowt. Money to money and money talks etc. 

    Anyway, good luck with trying to get your views across.


  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    I fear there is little point in debating this one, but The Don's perception of what happens in a Points Promo is flawed in my opinion. Very flawed. Players don't move up or down the levels (buy-ins, stakes), they remain at their normal level, but play more games. I can't think of a single reason why a player who usually plays, say, £22 or £55 SNG's would suddenly move down to £2.20 or £5.50 due to a Points Promo. The logical likelihood is they would move UP not down.  IMO, of course.  
    Posted by Tikay10

    There is plenty of point to debating this one. It's an important topic, especially to the vast majority of your customers who are likely netdepositing players.

    You have missed my point, so I'll go into more detail.

    I was talking purely about the negative effect this promotion has on microstakes cash games specifically, as that is my game. I don't know enough about MTT's/SNG's to have an opinion on the effect it has on those games.

    However, this is pretty much what happens in the microstakes cash games when happy hours run.

    The recreational players barely alter their volume, maybe some go from playing one table to playing two tables but it doesn't change much.

    However, regs definitely increase their volume. This inevitably makes the games even harder for the fun players because the reg presence is higher than usual. So, a fun player that typically loses at 20bb/100 now maybe loses at 30bb/100 or higher.

    This means they go broke quicker, which means they pay less rake and the increased point effect is nullified. Because they go broke quicker, it makes them less likely to redeposit.

    If you disagree with my assessment of what happens to the game dynamics when these promotions run, I'd love to hear your take on how these promotions benefit net losing, comparatively low volume players and the ecosystem in general.
  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    If players arent good enough they will lose their money eventually anyway, but the chance for them to earn some extra rewards money cant be a bad thing, I highly doubt many losing players will be doubling the tables they play and hours they put in just for this promotion.. 
    Posted by jordz16

    You have missed the point. See my reply to Tikay where I explain my position in more detail.

  • edited December 2016
    I don't know why people are so hostile to OPs point of view on this one - it happens on here, it happens on 2+2, and I think it's a reasonable point. Not saying I agree with OP, but it's just an opinion - one that's difficult to actually disprove and holds some merit. 

    like TK, I'm equally dubious about Don's claims - I'm not actually sure the games would get much tougher, probably a little, but not by a huge amount. But the actual main point of the post, i.e. who the promotions are targeted @, can't really be sniffed at imo, one only has to check out Unibet's apparent recent success to see that type of model can work quite well. 

    Also not saying Happy Days is a bad promotion, just wanted to show OP some love
  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : Interesting points there. It is good to have opinions on here, albeit you will prob get the forum police jump on your case. Sometimes we are not allowed a debate on this forum. A lovely example of rewarding the rich and punishing the poor (ignoring the rake %) is that a recent winner of a high buy in event was awarded another buy in for another event....whereas a player who had free rolled into the same event, and had aces cracked on the pure bubble, got nowt. Money to money and money talks etc.  Anyway, good luck with trying to get your views across.
    Posted by MAXALLY
    It's not just Sky, it's a problem engulfs all of online poker.

    Way back in the day before mass tabling and rakeback was a way for regs to make money, sites capped the number of tables players could have open and rewards were just a small part of a winning players income.

    Now, across just about all sites, we have a system that encourages regulars to grind themselves to dust for a low winrate which is propped up with back end rewards payments.

    Online poker traffic continues to decrease year on year because the model is broken. Sites see their profits dropping, so increase rake/reduce rewards and more people get squeezed out of the game.

    If you look at a US facing site that has a 4 table cap, low rewards and makes it hard for players to track their results, you see a site that has great games with more fun players able to play against similarly skilled players and have a much better overall experience.

    If sites don't shake out of their current ways of working, more and more will go out of business as their traffic drops to unsustainable levels.

    Some folk though, are so concerned with their own personal situation that they can't see the wood for the trees.
  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : You have missed the point. See my reply to Tikay where I explain my position in more detail.
    Posted by The--Don

    I think its an opinion more than "the point" if a 6 tabling mid stake reg decides he wants to 10 table for this promotion (lets say hes going for priority) and include some slightly lower stake games, then his ability while 10 tabling wll definitely be lower than that at 6 tables so its swings and roundabouts really... the one thing you can say for sure is that the rec player will definitely be getting twice as much rewards money while hes playing
  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : I think its an opinion more than "the point" if a 6 tabling mid stake reg decides he wants to 10 table for this promotion (lets say hes going for priority) and include some slightly lower stake games, then his ability while 10 tabling wll definitely be lower than that at 6 tables so its swings and roundabouts really... the one thing you can say for sure is that the rec player will definitely be getting twice as much rewards money while hes playing
    Posted by jordz16
    I'm not interested in semantics.

    However, the effect of having a £50nl£40nl reg drop into the £20nl pool to add volume is significant. How significant is a matter of opinion but irrespective of how much worse he plays due to his increased volume, he's still making the games harder for most players in the pool and reducing their winrate (inreasing the loss rate of losing players).

    I agree the rec player is getting double rewards when he is playing but if he is going broke quicker, the impact of the double rewards is severely mitigated and I would assume in many cases, the losing players go broke so much quicker that they get less rewards than usual per £ lost at the tables.
  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : They lose their money quicker because they're in tougher games. Therefore, they most likely pay less rake than usual. All this promo does for recreational players is increase the speed at which they lose their money.
    Posted by The--Don
    I play low stake s&gs and if....I have read this offer correct ............ for two days the fifteen points needed to enter 8.30 free roll give away..... will be that much easier with double point.?   That must be a plus ......but if your asking for much more......... good luck with that.  

  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : I play low stake s&gs and if....I have read this offer correct ............ for two days the fifteen points needed to enter 8.30 free roll give away..... will be that much easier with double point.?   That must be a plus ......but if your asking for much more......... good luck with that.  
    Posted by goldon

    I don't play SNG's, so I haven't given much, or any thought to how those games will change because of this promotion.

    I was talking exclusively from a microstakes players perspective and presenting a case from a net losing players position.

    I'm not a net losing player FWIW but I feel these guys barely have a voice in the poker community and are hard done to by sites compared to the winning regs.

  • edited December 2016
    Interesting debate.

    I focus on £5 tdyms and when points promotions are on, I do notice more familiar names (as in the stars of this site) on those tables. That is especially the case when there is a points race type promotion taking place. Alot who are used to normal DYMs struggle with TDYMs however.

    A wider issue is how to support the net depositers as this is a benefit to all. Perhaps a "deposit £xx, get a percentage back in tokens if you lose it" type offer would be good.

    (I have no vested interest BTW having not been a net depositer since April 2015 - I was pretty shocking before then though! To be mercenary, more recs is more profitable than more rate back. Especially on the TDYMs where you can win without playing a hand if the rest of the players are wild enough!)
  • edited December 2016
    In fairness there's probably an element of truth in his post here, poker sites probably could do more to attract/retain those at the bottom of the pyramid. 

    Whether a happy days promo hurts the low stakes losing player, I would have thought the extra volume of recs is likely to matched by an increased volume of new/low stake players. Also aren't regs more likely to move up stakes rather than down in such promos?!
  • edited December 2016
    @The_Don You have made some good points about the general poker economy, but I still fundamentally disagree with your OP saying that x2 points is bad for micro stakes recreational players.

    I don't play much cash, but I don't see the 4nl tables becoming reg infested and imo 20nl isnt micro stakes, but I can imagine that some regs will move down for some tables to take advantage (more later).

    I do play SNGs and double points are exceptionally good value for micro stakes players as per this table I posted elsewhere, a micro stakes player can actually get 92% rakeback!
    Normal points     games total  total     Entry Rake Game BI pts /100 pts stake rake rb rb % 0.25 0.05 0.3 1 100 30 5 2.3 46% 2 0.25 2.25 3 34 76.5 8.5 2.3 27% 3 0.3 3.3 3 34 112.2 10.2 2.3 23%                   Double points     games total  total     Entry Rake Game BI pts /100 pts stake rake rb rb % 0.25 0.05 0.3 2 50 15 2.5 2.3 92% 2 0.25 2.25 6 17 38.25 4.25 2.3 54% 3 0.3 3.3 6 17 56.1 5.1 2.3 45%

    As QUICKFEET posted regs do "move down" the SNG BIs in double points, especially when a rake race is on, so I do see regs at 5 and even 3 who normally play bigger. I think some of that was also caused by MTT players looking to make priority, especially before the recent MTT schedule changes.

    I can imagine a similar effect on cash, but not down to "micro" stakes so I suppose it does depend on your definition of "micro". According to the filters it's up to £1 SNGs on and up to 10NL.

    I myself have got caught out pushing for a points level and losing at reg full £5 SNGs, I have learned my lesson there and tend to set less challenging targets.

    However for the micro stakes, as above, double points are a great thing.

    In terms of rewards/rake in general, I think the sites need to look after both the high volume regs and the micro stakes players. Poker sites need to make a profit or we lose them, so they need the grinders and they need recreational depositors.

    We all need recreational depositors so anything that helps there then great. Crossover promotions from other parts of the site, the SKYBLUE promotions etc help all but are of most relative value to the micro recreational.

    I think the changes to the Sky Poker Rewards do that very well with the £2.30 token for just 100 points and the freerolls.




  • edited December 2016
    I really dislike the current reward system. Works for anyone who earns between 100 and 230 points but sucks for people like me who earn between 300-400 points per week. 
  • edited December 2016
    Phantom66, that does look decent for SNG players. I know a decent number of the SNG regs are losing money before rakeback, so I can see how this is good for them,

    My interest though is in the effects these promotions have on cash games in the short term and how sites should change their policies long term.

    Online poker currently works on an unsustainable model where it gives money to already winning players and does nothing at all for those that actually keep games alive right at the bottom of the ladder.

    Most regs are too caught up in the present to think about the long term and they're contributing heavily to the decline of the game.
  • edited December 2016
    In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:
    I really dislike the current reward system. Works for anyone who earns between 100 and 230 points but sucks for people like me who earn between 300-400 points per week. 
    Posted by jdsallstar
    All the more reason for you to use double points to hit 500?

    If you assume there are broadly 3 types of players on the site.

    1. Depositing low volume recs
    2. Competent mid volume recs
    3. High volume regs

    It makes sense to rewards players in categories 1 and 3 more than 2 for the reasons outlined above.

    Personally sometimes I just play enough to get 100pts, sometimes I push on to hit 500. Often I play on to 2-300 because at the end of the day I am just playing for fun and the rewards don't make a big difference to me and I am not going to stop the fun just to eek out a higher % rakeback. I do like saving tokens though.
  • edited December 2016
    I don't agree that sites should be rewarding high volume regs.

    They should reward table starters, much like live casino's pay props but not those that jump on waitlists, never start games, or join short handed games to create action.
  • edited December 2016
    Yeah the double points are good but still way down compared to previous system. Has completely wiped out my urge to put in any real volume!
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