You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.

You might need to refresh your page afterwards.

Sky Poker forums will be temporarily unavailable from 11pm Wednesday July 25th.
Sky Poker Forums is upgrading its look! Stay tuned for the big reveal!

£5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam

edited February 2017 in Sit & Go Strategy
What it says on the tin really ^

£5 DYM, still very early stages, I've played a few hundred DYMs at this stake over the last month or so and not seen this guy once so almost certainly not a reg. Too early for me to have any info on him really as we've all just folded lots mostly.

Pretty standard open and c-bet, and then he just bombs.

We block a lot of the OESD, and some of the bigger FDs. There is of course they other factor that we've already doubled early and so I expect to cash a vvv high % of the time now. If I call and win I'd expect to cash near 100% of the time, but if we call and lose it's game on again and we're back to cashing about as often as we would from the very start of a new game.

WWYD and more importantly what kinda range are you giving him?


PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
EVADNEY Small blind   15.00 15.00 1705.00
elal25 Big blind   30.00 45.00 1945.00
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • Q
     
Dunplannin Fold     
Lambert180 Raise   90.00 135.00 3995.00
dave457 Fold     
EVADNEY Fold     
elal25 Call   60.00 195.00 1885.00
Flop
   
  • 9
  • 9
  • J
     
elal25 Check     
Lambert180 Bet   100.00 295.00 3895.00
elal25 All-in   1885.00 2180.00 0.00
Lambert180                          
                        
                                         
                                           
«1

Comments

  • edited February 2017

    I'm folding, why get involved?

    He CAN have the 9, he CAN have JJ (albeit played badly or oddly), but we don't need to take the risk, do we?

    We are 5 handed with almost 4,000 chips, with 3 paid.

    Fold & move on, it's not an MTT. 
  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    I'm folding, why get involved? He CAN have the 9, he CAN have JJ (albeit played badly or oddly), but we don't need to take the risk, do we? We are 5 handed with almost 4,000 chips, with 3 paid. Fold & move on, it's not an MTT. 
    Posted by Tikay10

    Terrible advice, play for the win lambo!*


    *Or maybe fold and make a note for next time!
  • edited February 2017
    Difficult to give a response without any linked pics in the OP.
  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    I'm folding, why get involved? He CAN have the 9, he CAN have JJ (albeit played badly or oddly), but we don't need to take the risk, do we? We are 5 handed with almost 4,000 chips, with 3 paid. Fold & move on, it's not an MTT. 
    Posted by Tikay10
    This.

    I dont think ranges are the issue - stack size and maximising your chances of a cashing are. You wont increase your chances by anywhere near a % by calling and winning as you will hurt them by calling and losing.

    As well as the hands that crush us, or taking a flip with draws, yes our opponent could be doing this with KJ.AJ or even air or small suited connectors.

    I would fold - we cannot fold to the money but with the big stack we should get more than our fair share of walks and plenty of chances to keep stack topped up by raising unopened pots even if we go card dead.


  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    Difficult to give a response without any linked pics in the OP.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    I'll replace links with uploaded pics when the forum software gets updated so it doesn't take weeks to get a pic approved.
  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam : This. I dont think ranges are the issue - stack size and maximising your chances of a cashing are. You wont increase your chances by anywhere near a % by calling and winning as you will hurt them by calling and losing. As well as the hands that crush us, or taking a flip with draws, yes our opponent could be doing this with KJ.AJ or even air or small suited connectors. I would fold - we cannot fold to the money but with the big stack we should get more than our fair share of walks and plenty of chances to keep stack topped up by raising unopened pots even if we go card dead.
    Posted by Phantom66
    Cheers for the replies. I did fold btw, felt like it was just the safer route.

    I don't wanna be pedantic but ranges are all that matter, if we could say categorically  that we have 80% equity v his range then I think we should call, I'm not saying we do (or even close) but whether we call or not has to be about his range. 

    I think JJ is extremely unlikely, KK+ is marginally more likely than JJ but still vv unlikely due to no 3bet pre. 9x is reasonably likely because some weaker players will just panic with how wet the board is and just try to get all the money in now or be happy to win the pot as it is. Jx is very likely too for the same reasons although obviously there are a ton more combos of Jx.

    On balance I'm still happy with the fold, but thought people might think it was a bit closer than a snap fold. Fwiw, as I say this was very early in the game so I had no notes or anything but in this same game he went on to take the exact same line in loadsss of spots where he'd massively overjam over a cbet on the flop, dunno if he was doing it with TP or any piece of what, didn't manage to see anyone call him when he did it.
  • edited February 2017
    When I said ranges are not the issue, I mean, in this spot v an opponent with no reads.

    I guess what I meant to say was - I dont see how you can ever put this unknown player on an accurate range, never mind be confident it is one we are crushing.

    You do get some low stakes DYM players who are very loose and very aggro, presumably because they know players are mostly tight especially early levels 5/6 handed and they get alot of folds to massive overbets.

    There are a few I have notes on and will call light. I would still rather face them in a 6 max SNG than a DYM though.

    In future at least you will not be deciding in a vacuum, even if they didnt get to showdown, the frequency of the move tells the story.
  • edited February 2017
    I call 

    Edit
    Didn't notice your stack size. Probs a fold then but closer than everyone seems to think in my opinion 
  • edited February 2017

    I'm not really in a position to be dogmatic here, nor do I claim any great expertise at any form of poker on this site with the possible exception of DYM's, but I could not disagree more with this statement;

    "I don't wanna be pedantic but ranges are all that matter, if we could say categorically  that we have 80% equity v his range then I think we should call"

    In my opinion, no, no, & then no again. We should not even call with 90% equity v his range. (Note we are GUESSING his range).  

    It does not matter if his range is quads, or a complete & utter airball. We should fold.
     
    We have no interest whatsoever in his range IN THIS SPOT. We don't care what he has. We should fold.
     
    I can't think of a single credible reason why anyone would get involved here. We should fold.

    You are a competent player. You have 4,000 chips 5 handed, & as we later discover, one of our oppos is a maniac.

    It's a DYM, not an MTT. We don't need all the chips, we can happily finish 3rd.
     
    What price a competent player with 4,000 chips 5 handed to cash in a small ball DYM? 1/5, 1/6?

    It's EGO that makes us want to get involved here.
     
    One of the guys I love to bits in the O8 DYM's cannot grasp this. He regularly gets 4,000, 5,000 even 6,000 chips early doors & fails to cash.
     
    "But they are taking advantage of me & my blinds tikay".

    So what? LET THEM.

    We get a tick if we cash. The same tick whether we have 8,000 chips or 1 chip. The clever ones sit quietly at the back & let Team Gung Ho cut each other's throats.
     
    I may well be talking out of my rear end here, but this is not about ranges, hands, "what might he have?", not at all. It's about solid DYM strategy.
     
    We are as near locked as we can be. It'd be criminal to put our entire stack at risk.

    We are folding. 

    ALL IMO, of course.
     
    It is a great example of how this Poker clinic can help players though.
     
    It's not always about cards & ranges, in DYM's strategy is just as important, maybe more important.  




  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    I call 
    Posted by Jac35
    Ha.

    If my NLH coach says it's a call, it's a call.

    ;)
  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam : Ha. If my NLH coach says it's a call, it's a call. ;)
    Posted by Tikay10
    Just edited
    I was being lazy and didn't see Paul's stack size 
    I just assumed the game had just started in which case I think it's a snap call If Paul is playing 2k
    Thoughts?
  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam : Just edited I was being lazy and didn't see Paul's stack size  I just assumed the game had just started in which case I think it's a snap call If Paul is playing 2k Thoughts?
    Posted by Jac35
    Ha, he had 4,000 chips, & in that case its a fold all day every day & twice on Sunday. Only misplaced ego can make us call here.  

    With 2,000 chips? Different case entirely. It would depend on a lot of things.
  • edited February 2017
    Thought some more 
    I'm thinking a call is still ok here for a number of reasons.
    We don't know this guy. We call and now we have a very good note on him. Potentially losing calls can be profitable long term.
    We should be ahead plenty here. If we're not and we lose then we start again. We're not crippled.
    We are far from locked. This is very early and If we're saying that we are folding basically everything, then we will soon get drawn back in.
  • edited February 2017

    I'd not call here in a month of Sundays.

    Not enough upside, too much downside. It's that simple.  
  • edited February 2017
    Grow a pair and play for the win!
  • edited February 2017
    Not sure I agree with the ranges dont matter as we aren't in a locked cash situation. It is super early so its not like we can fold to victory. We have to play some hands and we need to look at ranges to see if we should call. Surely if we are 90% to win we would call as we then can fold to victory and we are still ok in the 10% of times we lose.
  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    Grow a pair and fold for the win
    Posted by MattBates
    FYP

    PS - It's a DYM, not an MTT. All three winners get paid exactly the same.
  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    Not sure I agree with the ranges dont matter as we aren't in a locked cash situation. It is super early so its not like we can fold to victory. We have to play some hands and we need to look at ranges to see if we should call. Surely if we are 90% to win we would call as we then can fold to victory and we are still ok in the 10% of times we lose.
    Posted by MattBates
    We have a ton of time to find one or two easy spots later, if we need to. Assuming we survive calling that jam, of course......
  • edited February 2017
    Do we fold Aces in bb to an open shove?
  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    Do we fold Aces in bb to an open shove?
    Posted by Jac35
    Pre-flop, no, absolutely not.  
  • edited February 2017

    Anyway, I've been stuck on a train for over 2 hours, hence me getting involved, as I don't really take my poker (or myself......) that seriously, but am close to London now, so I'm done here.

    PS - it's a fold.
     
  • edited February 2017
    I still fold by the way.

    With AA we are not guessing, easy call.

    If anyone would like to post a rationale for us being 80% in that hand v shovers range in a vacuum then please do.
  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    I still fold by the way. With AA we are not guessing, easy call. If anyone would like to post a rationale for us being 80% in that hand v shovers range in a vacuum then please do.
    Posted by Phantom66
    The 80% was purely hypothetical just to make the point that ranges do matter and there is a point where we should call. Assigning ranges is always a bit of guesswork even when we have notes.

    It might be that the point where we should call is us having 90% equity or whatever, I don't know, but there is a point somewhere.

    I vvv much doubt we have 80% equity btw. 
  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam : The 80% was purely hypothetical just to make the point that ranges do matter and there is a point where we should call. Assigning ranges is always a bit of guesswork even when we have notes. It might be that the point where we should call is us having 90% equity or whatever, I don't know, but there is a point somewhere. I vvv much doubt we have 80% equity btw
    Posted by Lambert180
    I agree which was the main point I was trying to make.

    Only way we are 80/20 is if we think the opponent is jamming any 2.


  • edited February 2017

    To me (and Tikay is the only one agreeing which does worry me slightly) this hand is not really about the ranges our opponent is on. How can it be if the only range we justify a call with is any 2 cards?

    I do try and assign ranges, not saying that is bad in general - of course it isn't.

    Fwiw if we think they have something and are shoving any flush draw, any 9 any J, u/d str8 draw TT,KK,AA then I doubt we are better than 60/40? Maybe 65/35 at a push? 


  • edited February 2017
    I think I call and be quite happy to do so. Sometimes we'll have our pants pulled down by 9x, many times they'll have Jx and drawing pretty thin.

    Worst case scenario is back to 2k starting stack 5 handed at 15/30, best case scenario is 6k chips and on the bubble already. The former means we should still cash a reasonable amount of the time (esp on what looks a table of randoms), latter means its all gravy from here on in.

    I'd say the decision is much closer if we were playing a 2k stack.
  • edited February 2017
    I think it's close but I think it's a fold. Having said that I dont think i would have the discipline to fold this in game. Multitabling and the short time bank will see me putting him heavily towards Jx hands and therefore calling.

    There's pretty good arguements for calling and folding so I'd be reasonably happy with either.
  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    To me (and Tikay is the only one agreeing which does worry me slightly) this hand is not really about the ranges our opponent is on. How can it be if the only range we justify a call with is any 2 cards? I do try and assign ranges, not saying that is bad in general - of course it isn't. Fwiw if we think they have something and are shoving any flush draw, any 9 any J, u/d str8 draw TT,KK,AA then I doubt we are better than 60/40? Maybe 65/35 at a push? 
    Posted by Phantom66

    Sorry to go on about this point but at this stage it is 100% about ranges. Either we are saying we are folding every hand in spots like this including a straight flush or we are saying we analyse our opponents range in this spot and make an assessment. You are doing that range assessment but then saying its not about ranges. There are times when we dont care about ranges and just fold 100% but I cant see how this is one of those.
  • edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam:
    In Response to Re: £5 DYM - OP Facing Big Over-Jam : Sorry to go on about this point but at this stage it is 100% about ranges. Either we are saying we are folding every hand in spots like this including a straight flush or we are saying we analyse our opponents range in this spot and make an assessment. You are doing that range assessment but then saying its not about ranges. There are times when we dont care about ranges and just fold 100% but I cant see how this is one of those.
    Posted by MattBates
    No need to aplogise Matt. I am glad (and the rest of the forum should be) that a player as good as yourself is taking the time to post on these strategy/hand analysis spots.

    I am probably not explaining myself very well either which doesn't help you or lambert.

    In game I tend to play by instinct and feel, backed up by a decent smattering of knowledge of the fundamentals and some experience. This is especially in NL DYMs where we don't get so many opportunities to play down the streets and it often boils down to call/shove considerations.

    I think about risk/reward more than I think about specific ranges and I dont multitable large amounts so I try and pay particular attention to my opponents and adjust.

    Off the table I will often look back and see if my gut inspired play was backed up by a reasoned assessment of ranges.

    So yes you are of course right in that my gut/feel call/fold will be in part determined by an assessment of ranges, am I ahead or behind and by how much. When I did put a range out there in my post above it was more an offline check to how I would play it than something I would have consciously done in game.

    I just felt that this situation was a relatively easy fold based on risk/reward, that is all.

    Cliffs. In game having already doubled up I fold to protect that advantage rather than gamble with a maniac. Offline I look at possible ranges and I still fold. I can see how it is probably more marginal than my gut feeling though.
  • edited February 2017
    The risk/reward factor would be heavily weighted towards a call for me. If we started the hand with 2k then it would lean me the other way.
Sign In or Register to comment.