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Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?

HAYSIEHAYSIE
edited June 2017 in Poker Chat
If you're playing within your bankroll then these points are all valid, and it is odd that the £5.5 bounty hunters get hundreds of runners when the deepstack that runs on weekends gets about 40 even at peak time.

With the Super Sunday 110, if you're playing outside of your bankroll and taking a shot at a special event, the bounty hunter element makes it more attractive as you get a shot at big prize money with more of a chance to offset some of the dent to your bankroll with a head prize or two.

If you sat in and take 1 head, you're already in profit.

I think lots of people find them more fun than freezeouts.

If it's above your normal bankroll then the first place prize is massive for you whether it's reduced by the bounty hunter element or not.

Supporting your points though, another example would be the Mini Major - gets 600+ for 1st whereas the 9.30 11BH gets 300-400 including head prizes on days when it gets similar number of runners.

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    I was playing on Super Sunday in the 30k guaranteed, and wondered why people would prefer a bounty hunter. In comparison a non bounty hunter doubles the prize money for all those that cash. So the winner would have got 9k not 4.5k. The winner actually got around 6k including head prizes, so still a massive loss. Isnt double the prize money for all those that cash a massive draw. I realise that players have different views, and that Sky say that the bounty hunters are popular. I have no basis for disputing this.
    Do players think they can cover their buy in, or even make a profit without cashing? Although anyone that cashes in a bounty hunter loses money, if compared to a non bounty hunter tourney.
    I havent got access to the 30k result, so I looked at yesterdays main event to see how it worked out in practice, rather than in theory,
    288 runners, and 30 cashed.
    The 30 that cashed got 137 heads between them which is almost 50% of the heads.
    The next 20 players that came close to cashing got a further 40 heads.
    Therefore the remaining 238 players got the remaining 111 heads.
    As the early heads are worth £11.25. then this means that the bottom 238 got an average of around £5 per head on average. The trade off for this was tha prize pool for those that cashed was decimated. 
    Would the double prize money on each occasion that you cashed offset the odd head prize?
    I only looked at the one tourney so if you looked at more the result may be different, but I thought it was an eye opener.
    If you exclude the heads then it brought the prize money of a 30k tourney down to the level of the 15k Sunday Major, and winning a weekday main event is reduced from 2k to 1k because they are bounty hunters.
    I know which one I would prefer.
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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    If you're playing within your bankroll then these points are all valid, and it is odd that the £5.5 bounty hunters get hundreds of runners when the deepstack that runs on weekends gets about 40 even at peak time. With the Super Sunday 110, if you're playing outside of your bankroll and taking a shot at a special event, the bounty hunter element makes it more attractive as you get a shot at big prize money with more of a chance to offset some of the dent to your bankroll with a head prize or two. If you sat in and take 1 head, you're already in profit. I think lots of people find them more fun than freezeouts. If it's above your normal bankroll then the first place prize is massive for you whether it's reduced by the bounty hunter element or not. Supporting your points though, another example would be the Mini Major - gets 600+ for 1st whereas the 9.30 11BH gets 300-400 including head prizes on days when it gets similar number of runners.
    Posted by Angmar2626
    The sunday 110 is a freezeout, and the biggest guarantee of the week.

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  • chiggypigchiggypig
    edited June 2017
    Bounty hunters are much lower variance, got to love that
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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    Bounty hunters are much lower variance, got to love that
    Posted by chiggypig
    Why is that?

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  • jordz16jordz16
    edited June 2017
    if you are a losing player your money will last longer by playing BH's
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  • MohicanMohican
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : Why is that?
    Posted by HAYSIE
    Because you don't have to cash to make a profit. 
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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    if you are a losing player your money will last longer by playing BH's
    Posted by jordz16
    Because of the bountys?

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : Because you don't have to cash to make a profit. 
    Posted by Mohican
    On the one I looked at, outside the top 30 that got paid, 15 players out of the remaining 258, got 3 or more heads, which just about covers the buy in.
    The other 243 players made a loss unless they satted in.

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    if you are a losing player your money will last longer by playing BH's
    Posted by jordz16
    I suppose if you took a really good player that cashed frequently, he would be better off playing freezeouts and getting double the money each time he cashed.
    If you took a really bad player that didnt cash very often, then he would be better off playing bounty hunters because he would pick up the odd head now and again.
    What about an average player?
    Do players like bounty hunters because they are under the impression that they get more heads than they actually do?

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  • MohicanMohican
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : On the one I looked at, outside the top 30 that got paid, 15 players out of the remaining 258, got 3 or more heads, which just about covers the buy in. The other 243 players made a loss unless they satted in.
    Posted by HAYSIE
    You'd need to look at the size of the bounties to get an accurate figure as to who made a profit but even using your numbers,compared to a normal tourney,the prize pool was effectievley 50% larger. Also those who have only taken 1 or 2 heads have lessened their  losses. It effectively flattens out the pay outs.
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  • EssexphilEssexphil
    edited June 2017
    Any supposed flattening of the payouts via bounties is likely to be equivalent to the flatter payout structure in freezeouts, where there is normally a higher percentage making the money.
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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : You'd need to look at the size of the bounties to get an accurate figure as to who made a profit but even using your numbers,compared to a normal tourney,the prize pool was effectievley 50% larger. Also those who have only taken 1 or 2 heads have lessened their  losses. It effectively flattens out the pay outs.
    Posted by Mohican
    Generally the players that bust early will be taking heads at the minimum price rather than heads of players that have increased their head value by busting other players. On this basis they need 3 heads to cover their buy in.
    If an average player swapped over to freezeouts of the same value from bounty hunters, would they benefit from the double prize money and no head prizes?
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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    Any supposed flattening of the payouts via bounties is likely to be equivalent to the flatter payout structure in freezeouts, where there is normally a higher percentage making the money.
    Posted by Essexphil
    You will have to explain that in English, even though I am Welsh.

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : You will have to explain that in English, even though I am Welsh.
    Posted by HAYSIE
    Why are bounty hunters much lower variance.

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  • FCHDFCHD
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : Why are bounty hunters much lower variance.
    Posted by HAYSIE

    Because in a similar sized field, the prize pool would be shared amongst a higher number of the players.
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  • EssexphilEssexphil
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : You will have to explain that in English, even though I am Welsh.
    Posted by HAYSIE
    In Bounty Hunters, the payout is normally to the top 10%. In Freezeouts, this is often altered on Sky to 15% approx, which has an effect similar to the bounties....
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  • Sky__JamesSky__James
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    Any supposed flattening of the payouts via bounties is likely to be equivalent to the flatter payout structure in freezeouts, where there is normally a higher percentage making the money.
    Posted by Essexphil
    This is true although b/hunters still spread the money around a bit more.
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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : This is true although b/hunters still spread the money around a bit more.
    Posted by Sky__James
    So are you saying that when promoting a particular tournament, that the head prizes have more effect than double prize money?

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  • Phantom66Phantom66
    edited June 2017
    I actually prefer freezouts and personally would like to see more of them and yes generally the prize fund will be spread out further and wider. In some cases a Bounty Hunter winner can actually win MORE than they would have in a freezout, but generally if players are in the cash regularly they would be worse off than if they were playing the same field in freezouts.

    HOWEVER...

    Bounty Hunters are more popular than freezouts

    Depositing/losing players will see their funds last longer in Bounty Hunters and so will play those over freezouts.

    Just look at UKOPs, the BHs generally smash guarantee, the freezouts can struggle.

    I would imagine it would be better EV for winning regs to play fields with a larger number of weaker recs in than a strong field of freezout players?

    The relative strength of a field must have a greater impact on profitablity than payout structure? 

    I expect Aussie could crunch some stats on profit % of winning regs in the 2 formats?


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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    I actually prefer freezouts and personally would like to see more of them and yes generally the prize fund will be spread out further and wider. In some cases a Bounty Hunter winner can actually win MORE than they would have in a freezout, but generally if players are in the cash regularly they would be worse off than if they were playing the same field in freezouts. HOWEVER... Bounty Hunters are more popular than freezouts Depositing/losing players will see their funds last longer in Bounty Hunters and so will play those over freezouts. Just look at UKOPs, the BHs generally smash guarantee, the freezouts can struggle. I would imagine it would be better EV for winning regs to play fields with a larger number of weaker recs in than a strong field of freezout players? The relative strength of a field must have a greater impact on profitablity than payout structure?  I expect Aussie could crunch some stats on profit % of winning regs in the 2 formats?
    Posted by Phantom66
    That would be interesting. Over to you Aussie.

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  • aussie09aussie09
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    I actually prefer freezouts and personally would like to see more of them and yes generally the prize fund will be spread out further and wider. In some cases a Bounty Hunter winner can actually win MORE than they would have in a freezout, but generally if players are in the cash regularly they would be worse off than if they were playing the same field in freezouts. HOWEVER... Bounty Hunters are more popular than freezouts Depositing/losing players will see their funds last longer in Bounty Hunters and so will play those over freezouts. Just look at UKOPs, the BHs generally smash guarantee, the freezouts can struggle. I would imagine it would be better EV for winning regs to play fields with a larger number of weaker recs in than a strong field of freezout players? The relative strength of a field must have a greater impact on profitablity than payout structure?  I expect Aussie could crunch some stats on profit % of winning regs in the 2 formats?
    Posted by Phantom66

    interesting stuff.

    there are some stats that we all know, e.g. bounty hunters spread the prizepool to more players.  this is good.  it gives a positive reinforcement to more players.  more players will be motivated to play more games.  BHs do not make money last longer necessarliy, more that BHs make people motivated to play more mtts.

    i would like to add that the prizepool is distributed differently, insofar that even coming last, or leaving the earliest, the player might win some money back.  not likely but possible.  but in a freezeout this randomness is not there.

    bounty hunters favour those who gamble more than the norm.  freezouts favour the players more than the norm.

    the issue of guarantees and overlay is not a BH/freezout issue.  it is a tournament management thing done very well by james.  existence of overlay has been managed far better in recent weeks.  remember though, overlay is good as well as bad.  it is bad to have lots of overlay, bad to have zero overlay.  it is good to aim for an optimal number of mtts overlaying each day.

    i have been looking at a way of assessing strength of the field in each MTT.  i am soon to develop something along these lines.  i would like to know which mtts are tough, which are not.

    finally, i have stats over a long period of time, to show the percentage of players who make a profit.  this number is not high, probably a lot lower than you might think.  if you are happy to take this as true, BHs are a fantastic offering for sky poker and a fantastic offering for us all, whether good or bad, a gambler or a player.



    .
     
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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : interesting stuff. there are some stats that we all know, e.g. bounty hunters spread the prizepool to more players.  this is good.  it gives a positive reinforcement to more players.  more players will be motivated to play more games.  BHs do not make money last longer necessarliy, more that BHs make people motivated to play more mtts. i would like to add that the prizepool is distributed differently, insofar that even coming last, or leaving the earliest, the player might win some money back.  not likely but possible.  but in a freezeout this randomness is not there. bounty hunters favour those who gamble more than the norm.  freezouts favour the players more than the norm. the issue of guarantees and overlay is not a BH/freezout issue.  it is a tournament management thing done very well by james.  existence of overlay has been managed far better in recent weeks.  remember though, overlay is good as well as bad.  it is bad to have only one extreme.  it is good to aim for an optimal number of mtts overlaying each day. i have been looking at a way of assssing strangth of the field in each MTT.  i am soon to develop something along these lines.  i would like to know which mtts are tough, which are not. finally, i have stats over a long period of time, to show the percentage of players who make a profit.  this number is not high, probably a lot lower than you might think.  if you are happy to take this as true, BHs are a fantastic offering for sky poker and a fantastic offering for us all, whether good or bad, a gambler or a player. .  
    Posted by aussie09
    Intresting. I wouldnt dream of disputing the stats because you have them. I just thought that bigger prize money would have had more of an effect.
    How do you think a £30 tourney with a £10 head prize( the way we currently run with 25% to your head, and 75% to your account) , and £20 in the prizepool, would work.
    Or even the same tourney with a flat £5 or £10 head prize going straight into your account, so head prizes wouldnt increase.

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  • aussie09aussie09
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : Intresting. I wouldnt dream of disputing the stats because you have them. I just thought that bigger prize money would have had more of an effect. How do you think a £30 tourney with a £10 head prize( the way we currently run with 25% to your head, and 75% to your account) , and £20 in the prizepool, would work. Or even the same tourney with a flat £5 or £10 head prize going straight into your account, so head prizes wouldnt increase.
    Posted by HAYSIE

    this goes to the heart of the matter, hays.  

    i guess that i know what type of game you're most comfortable with (format, speed, blinds, buy-in etc.)  this is your manor, your home ground.  i know that you have developed a way of playing which is carefully calibrated and successful in this environment.  therefore, it is only natural for you to want to have everyone playing your type of game.  i recall your post about stack size being linked to buy-in.  it is all to do with you being comfortable in a calibrated game.

    to me, bounty hunters address a different need.  as different in cricket as 2020 is to a county match.   poker will be a different game soon.  it has already morphed from freezeout to bh.  morphed from 9 to 6 handed.  deep stack to turbo, cash to spin-up, sng are looking for an upgrade.  cricket would have disappeared as the UK population aged were it not for the shortened game.  cricket has already gone abroad and away from the UK.  poker will be a faster, shorter, gamblier and punchier game.

    but back to your point.  tweaking the proportion of prize-money from 50% to 33% for bounties is a bad tweak.  i know you want things to return to how they used to be.  after all, it's your comfort zone.  it is certainly the place where you are good.

    if i could succeed in anything, it would be to bring you into today's world.  you are a good player and when you recalibrate things you will clean up in the 2020 version of poker.


    ps.  meant in a good way and with full respect to your ability.

     

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : this goes to the heart of the matter, hays.   i guess that i know what type of game you're most comfortable with (format, speed, blinds, buy-in etc.)  this is your manor, your home ground.  i know that you have developed a way of playing which is carefully calibrated and successful in this environment.  therefore, it is only natural for you to want to have everyone playing your type of game.  i recall your post about stack size being linked to buy-in.  it is all to do with you being comfortable in a calibrated game. to me, bounty hunters address a different need.  as different in cricket as 2020 is to a county match.   poker will be a different game soon.  it has already morphed from freezeout to bh.  morphed from 9 to 6 handed.  deep stack to turbo, cash to spin-up, sng are looking for an upgrade.  cricket would have disappeared as the UK population aged were it not for the shortened game.  cricket has already gone abroad and away from the UK.  poker will be a faster, shorter, gamblier and punchier game. but back to your point.  tweaking the proportion of prize-money from 50% to 33% for bounties is a bad tweak.  i know you want things to return to how they used to be.  after all, it's your comfort zone.  it is certainly the place where you are good. if i could succeed in anything, it would be to bring you into today's world.  you are a good player and when you recalibrate things you will clean up in the 2020 version of poker. ps.  meant in a good way and with full respect to your ability.  
    Posted by aussie09
    Go on then.

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  • aussie09aussie09
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : Go on then.
    Posted by HAYSIE
    well, do you know that i know your figures inside out?  there is one thing i would suggest to make the transition.  firstly, your figures are superb.  i acknowledge that i am not able to give you any advise on playing poker.  i can, however, interpret your figures in relation to other players.  there is one suggestion....

    get a bigger, heavier bat.  when you get to the final over hit out.  batter them.




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  • FCHDFCHD
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    i would like to add that the prizepool is distributed differently, insofar that even coming last, or leaving the earliest, the player might win some money back.  not likely but possible.  but in a freezeout this randomness is not there. bounty hunters favour those who gamble more than the norm.
    Posted by aussie09

    Pedant alert - the last placed player cannot get any money back; to do that you need to have eliminated someone so you can't possibly be the last finisher. Second last, yes theoretically.
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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : well, do you know that i know your figures inside out?  there is one thing i would suggest to make the transition.  firstly, your figures are superb.  i acknowledge that i am not able to give you any advise on playing poker.  i can, however, interpret your figures in relation to other players.  there is one suggestion.... get a bigger, heavier bat.  when you get to the final over hit out.  batter them.
    Posted by aussie09
    Ok thank you. You like cricket then.
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  • aussie09aussie09
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : Ok thank you. You like cricket then.
    Posted by HAYSIE

    no, don't watch it much nowadays.  used to.

    i just hope i don't come up against you later.

    there was a second tweak...  stop losing so often in the first quarter.  you're far better than that.  i think back to ali versus foreman....




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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion?:
    In Response to Re: Are Bounty Hunters an illusion? : no, don't watch it much nowadays.  used to. i just hope i don't come up against you later. there was a second tweak...  stop losing so often in the first quarter.  you're far better than that.  i think back to ali versus foreman....
    Posted by aussie09
    Ok thanks again.

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  • aussie09aussie09
    edited June 2017

    excellent,

    i am pleased to see the result.



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