KK, Call or Fold

-Typhoon-

Ok, i've not been at the table for more than 20 mins or so, so i dont have much info on the players involved in the action.

I know it's micro stakes, so i'm not risking that much, but i think its a similar situation to a post a few weeks ago, regarding the higher stake tables. I would like opinions on what the correct play should be in this position, as i'm next to act.

I'll post the full hand later today.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
daz69	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£10.32
griffgruff	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.90
Nightshado	Big blind		£0.04	£0.10	£0.64
	Your hole cards	K K
joesoap121	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£4.24
Nightshado	Check
DADSARMIE	Fold
pyte	Call		£0.04	£0.18	£3.78
-Typhoon-	Raise		£0.68	£0.86	£3.08
daz69	Fold
griffgruff	All-in		£3.90	£4.76	£0.00
joesoap121	Fold
Nightshado	All-in		£0.62	£5.38	£0.02
pyte	All-in		£3.78	£9.16	£0.00

webby234

fold, but im not a cash player. so you may get the pro's coming on here saying its a call all day long, i know nothing, sorry i couldnt help

DOHHHHHHH

I just call....coz I cant fold.....

webby234

In Response to Re: KK, Call or Fold:

I just call....coz I cant fold.....
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

lol nice one dohhhh

hurst05

call everyday of the week, they would be going allin with 1010 JJ QQ AK AQ AJ, got to call, if one has aces then its just bad luck nh move on. way to tight if your folding kings preflop, the only time im not calling here is if it was the first level of the main event in vegas

DOHHHHHHH

I mean your rarely gonna see this sorta thing at the higher levels - you can ignore the shortstack he's wasting his time and quite honestly I hope he has AA there - he deserves to be taught a lesson for sitting there with under 20 bbs.

Its just a call innit - the argument of "wud u call if it was NL1000" isn't valid, coz it wouldn't happen there - unless the hands are AA AA KK KK. 

As you are posting it, I guess 1 did have aces, but what can ya do. Reload I guess?

webby234

In Response to Re: KK, Call or Fold:

call everyday of the week, they would be going allin with 1010 JJ QQ AK AQ AJ, got to call, if one has aces then its just bad luck nh move on. way to tight if your folding kings preflop, the only time im not calling here is if it was the first level of the main event in vegas
Posted by hurst05

so its a good idea to call 3 all ins with KK?

am sorry but that is not a call i would make, might say its a bit tight but against 3 other players, 1 of them will prob have aces and a call here is a bad call imo

jamesg1987

As its micro stakes, I think the range of these hands are going to pretty broad, with people regualrly shoving and calling with not much. Therefore I'm calling, if one has aces, then reload and go after those that went all in with an average hand!

Torres1892

In Response to KK, Call or Fold:

Ok, i've not been at the table for more than 20 mins or so, so i dont have much info on the players involved in the action. I know it's micro stakes, so i'm not risking that much, but i think its a similar situation to a post a few weeks ago, regarding the higher stake tables. I would like opinions on what the correct play should be in this position, as i'm next to act. I'll post the full hand later today. Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance daz69 Small blind   £0.02 £0.02 £10.32 griffgruff Big blind   £0.04 £0.06 £3.90 Nightshado Big blind   £0.04 £0.10 £0.64   Your hole cards K K       joesoap121 Call   £0.04 £0.14 £4.24 Nightshado Check         DADSARMIE Fold         pyte Call   £0.04 £0.18 £3.78 -Typhoon- Raise   £0.68 £0.86 £3.08 daz69 Fold         griffgruff All-in   £3.90 £4.76 £0.00 joesoap121 Fold         Nightshado All-in   £0.62 £5.38 £0.02 pyte All-in   £3.78 £9.16 £0.00
Posted by -Typhoon-

Call all day !!! What hands are you waiting for to get your money with ? If it's a money decision you should not be on the table. I know it sounds harsh but i feel it is straight forward

webby234

how the heck is it straight forward, the correct play is a fold, people are saying because its micro stakes its a call, if the stakes were 100/200 would it be a call? no it would not, am sorry but this is a fold and people who are saying call are only saying it because of the stakes of the game!!!!

pryce6

You have to call, not just because you have a premium hand - but let's be honest, you just look like a mug if you raise 17x BB and then fold to a shove.

webby234

its not just 1 shove though is it pryce its 3

pryce6

Well two - one of them shoves for less than his 17x raise. I am taking KK a.i 3-way pot, good chances are both of them have an ace and you just cannot fold.

webby234

In Response to Re: KK, Call or Fold:

You have to call, not just because you have a premium hand - but let's be honest, you just look like a mug if you raise 17x BB and then fold to a shove.
Posted by pryce6

also what your saying is you will never fold a hand if you raise 17x big blind because you dont want to look a mug, but you would rather flip over j10 or somet to look good?

hurst05

i call this all day long, ill put one guy on QQ, another guy on AK and the shortystacky on something like AQ-AJ well see later when he posts the rest of the hand what they had, but seriously webby, this is a call. i think i would still make the call at higher stakes, why, because i would be rolled for it, and if one has aces then its just a cooler and you are rolled for that kind of hand. for a start it would rarely happen at high stakes because you wont find 3 people going allin preflop with an entire buyin, 4 including the kings. theres alot more play down the streets etc. but yeah im calling. 

MereNovice

If pyte has AA here, I'd be staggered; he's initially limped on the cut-off after two limpers.
nightshado is irrelevant since you have already put more cash in the pot than he has.
Therefore you only need to concern yourself with griffgruff.
Unless he has shown himself to be the tightest player you're ever going to meet you should call.
You might even be lucky in that more than one of them has an ace so reducing their outs.

The stakes are only relevant in as much as you are likely to get more inexperienced players playing at these stakes who are likely to over-value their hands.

Action_Dan

In Response to Re: KK, Call or Fold:

how the heck is it straight forward, the correct play is a fold, people are saying because its micro stakes its a call, if the stakes were 100/200 would it be a call? no it would not, am sorry but this is a fold and people who are saying call are only saying it because of the stakes of the game!!!!
Posted by webby234

This seems to be your favourite justification at the moment - you've used similar theory on other posts in recent days! DOHHHHHHH's already said it's a fold at bigger level because you can put your opponent on range of hands so it's unlikely to be anything that doesn't have you dominated but at these levels, you're just as likely to be up against QJ suited/10's as AA! Yeah my % of winning against three random hands aren't great but at these stakes, I'm happily calling - there's nothing to gain here from folding unlike satellite/DYM game!

Mr_Miyagi

I agreed with Webby the other time about folding with JA.

But I would call with KK.

ACESOVER8s

The short stack is irellivant as he has less than your raise. It's possibly a call as the range is so wide on the micro's that their is every chance you are up against A X and an underpair. It's not a call because you won't lose much money but because with some history on the players you may be able to define their range better. With no info and irrelivant of stakes though you probably have to fold under the assumption that 1 of them will be playing the aces.

webby234

typhoon please post the rest of the hand

DOHHHHHHH

nooo webby your gonna be right! - people never post these sorta things unless theyve been cold decked/out-drawn - so theres a 50 50 chance ur right. 

I see your argument, but if you're good enough to fold pocket kings pre flop, then your playing way below your level at these stakes. Like, WAYYYYYYYY below ur level!

jamesg1987

My prediction is there's going to be an AQ, lower pocket pairs and King Queen and he makes the call and loses to the lower pocket pairs who hit their set.

I don't like the thought of playing KK four handed pre flop, but its micro stakes and people openly shove with trash, as we saw in the other thread by blackfish. KK is going to be infront of most hands so therefore I'd be assuming it's good and would make the call.

pryce6

In Response to Re: KK, Call or Fold:

In Response to Re: KK, Call or Fold : also what your saying is you will never fold a hand if you raise 17x big blind because you dont want to look a mug, but you would rather flip over j10 or somet to look good?
Posted by webby234

I'm never raising 17x...

ChirpyChip

It's a no Brainer.... call every day of the Century! 

Seagull158

In Response to KK, Call or Fold:

Ok, i've not been at the table for more than 20 mins or so, so i dont have much info on the players involved in the action. I know it's micro stakes, so i'm not risking that much, but i think its a similar situation to a post a few weeks ago, regarding the higher stake tables. I would like opinions on what the correct play should be in this position, as i'm next to act. I'll post the full hand later today. Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance daz69 Small blind   £0.02 £0.02 £10.32 griffgruff Big blind   £0.04 £0.06 £3.90 Nightshado Big blind   £0.04 £0.10 £0.64   Your hole cards K K       joesoap121 Call   £0.04 £0.14 £4.24 Nightshado Check         DADSARMIE Fold         pyte Call   £0.04 £0.18 £3.78 -Typhoon- Raise   £0.68 £0.86 £3.08 daz69 Fold         griffgruff All-in   £3.90 £4.76 £0.00 joesoap121 Fold         Nightshado All-in   £0.62 £5.38 £0.02 pyte All-in   £3.78 £9.16 £0.00
Posted by -Typhoon-

I've been on a 6 handed MTT table with 4 AIs. We all had PP and nobody had AA or KK. You have to call. On that table the best hand PF didnt hold up anyway.

DAVEYZZ

In Response to Re: KK, Call or Fold:

how the heck is it straight forward, the correct play is a fold, people are saying because its micro stakes its a call, if the stakes were 100/200 would it be a call? no it would not, am sorry but this is a fold and people who are saying call are only saying it because of the stakes of the game!!!!
Posted by webby234

its a 100% call everytime imo,the only hand beating you is aa and you will beat that 20% of the time,
it makes no difference if its cash or tourny either way i want to double up.....

DAVEYZZ

In Response to Re: KK, Call or Fold:

nooo webby your gonna be right! - people never post these sorta things unless theyve been cold decked/out-drawn - so theres a 50 50 chance ur right.  I see your argument, but if you're good enough to fold pocket kings pre flop, then your playing way below your level at these stakes. Like, WAYYYYYYYY below ur level!
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

i dont hink a top player is ever folding kk preflop...unless its 1st hand in a massive buy-in tourny?
why are they playing poker if they are folding kk pre,and what sort of hand are they waiting for to cash big/double up?

ps i called an all in with jj against 1 player last night on the bubble he had a/10 two players had folded an ace and he hit the river:(  the 9th place was £40 and 1st £690 so i am always going for the top three....

beaneh

The correct play in these situations is to raise your left hand in the air, start vigorously pumping the air with your right arm and then quickly hit the call button before all that fist pumping makes you miss your go.

Never fold. Ever.

Action_Dan

In Response to Re: KK, Call or Fold:

how the heck is it straight forward, the correct play is a fold, people are saying because its micro stakes its a call, if the stakes were 100/200 would it be a call? no it would not, am sorry but this is a fold and people who are saying call are only saying it because of the stakes of the game!!!!
Posted by webby234

Just read this again and it's even more obvious why it's a call - you've eluded to it yourself but then used that as reasons for folding... 

"People are saying because its micro stakes its a call" - yes as at this level, you're pretty much always ahead in this spot because they don't need massive hands here to be going all in! It's nothing to do with it's only £4 compared to £400 - it's everything to do with knowing the standard and range of your opponent when making the decision! If people were saying call with 8 4 then yeah that's because "of the stakes of the game" so they don't have regard for losing £4 but what people are actually saying here is I believe my KK are ahead of the majority of hands people would move all in at this level with so it's snap call everyday of the week...

"If the stakes were 100/200 would it be a call? no it would not" - that's correct because at those stakes, you would come up against better players so know their range of hands for getting their money in would usually be QQ+ so you're able to make calculated decision with that knowledge but that's not the issue here - we're sitting at 4NL table so basing your decision on what you would do at bigger stakes, is irrelevant!

Whenever the result gets posted, please don't use that as justification for folding if someone did have AA or win hand with some trash - if you're folding premium hands at 4NL (always giving credit to opponent for monsters) then you're rarely going to make any profit! Like on BlackFish3's thread, there's excellent advice here to take advantage of (if you don't want to listen, that's your choice) but they're playing at those bigger stakes for a reason...and it's not because they folded KK in this spot!

Ads2kuk

Yeah I have too go along with everyone else and say it's crazy to fold here.

So many wide range of hands...

Im gonna say JJs hit trips or something like that...

Definately the correct call though...

KnackersYa

Call all day! The spot might not be perfect (when are they?) but you have to call, otherwise you might as well pack up and go home.

By the way, the rest of the hand doesn't matter. If one of them has AA, so what? Folding KK here is far too nitty.