7-6 off utg debate

Eagle26

mucked the hand history up sorry, try again

istory #248473970 (00:41 06/04/2010)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
iklejack	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£50.20
badladgs22	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£19.50
	Your hole cards	7 6
Eagle26	Call		£0.50	£1.25	£63.22
MOREBOY	Fold
ChirpyChip	Call		£0.50	£1.75	£63.83
Macca1985	Call		£0.50	£2.25	£50.00
iklejack	Call		£0.25	£2.50	£49.95
badladgs22	Check
Flop
		7 K 6
iklejack	Check
badladgs22	Check
Eagle26	Bet		£2.50	£5.00	£60.72
ChirpyChip	Call		£2.50	£7.50	£61.33
Macca1985	Fold
iklejack	Call		£2.50	£10.00	£47.45
badladgs22	Fold
Turn
		6
iklejack	Check
Eagle26	Check
ChirpyChip	Bet		£7.50	£17.50	£53.83
iklejack	Fold
Eagle26	Call		£7.50	£25.00	£53.22
River
		4
Eagle26	Bet		£18.75	£43.75	£34.47
ChirpyChip	Call		£18.75	£62.50	£35.08
Eagle26	Show	7 6
ChirpyChip	Show	6 A
Eagle26	Win	Full House, 6s and 7s	£60.70

Eagle26

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
iklejack	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£50.20
badladgs22	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£19.50
	Your hole cards	7 6
Eagle26	Call		£0.50	£1.25	£63.22
MOREBOY	Fold
ChirpyChip	Call		£0.50	£1.75	£63.83
Macca1985	Call		£0.50	£2.25	£50.00
iklejack	Call		£0.25	£2.50	£49.95
badladgs22	Check
Flop
		7 K 6
iklejack	Check
badladgs22	Check
Eagle26	Bet		£2.50	£5.00	£60.72
ChirpyChip	Call		£2.50	£7.50	£61.33
Macca1985	Fold
iklejack	Call		£2.50	£10.00	£47.45
badladgs22	Fold
Turn
		6
iklejack	Check
Eagle26	Check
ChirpyChip	Bet		£7.50	£17.50	£53.83
iklejack	Fold
Eagle26	Call		£7.50	£25.00	£53.22
River

right guys, this was a hand that occured not too long ago, and after the hand i was criticized for the limp utg with the 7-6 off by chirpychip (a well known, good respected player) and we debated it for quite a while and he asked me to go and ask some of the bigger hitters on here if my play was horrible-so i am! ... anyways reasons for my limp were this, the table had been very passive and since i joined i was the only person pretty much creating action, a hand like 7-6 (suited or not) is a hand i like to play because any good cash player will know these are the type of hands that can take down an opponents whole stack. and from late position i would always be raising with it-as i very rarely limp into a pot. however on this occasion i got dealt it utg and wanted to see a flop so rather than muckin it or rasin here  i limped with the intention of callin a small raise - the table had been very passive so i knew that a raise and a re-raise was unlikely so was pretty confident i could get to the flop cheaply. i did and won the hand. so is this a terrible limp utg or not? i like to think as myself as a pretty reasonable player (not the greatest by any means) but a winnin player nontheless. i very rarely limp as many of the players who have shared tables with me will know, but on this occasion i wanted to get to the flop cheaply - am i wrong?? if so ill happily apologies to the bloke but imo i dont think there is much wrong here

ChirpyChip

Dn't seek apology!

BlackFish3

if the table is passive then raise and just steal the blinds like crazy. I personally dont like open limping, just be careful not to be results orientated eh... you won the hand THIS time...

BlackFish3

also i dont like how you played the hand, why do you slow down when your hand improves on the turn? I think you got minimal value for your monster tbh.

BrownnDog

'limping in' in ANY position in a 6-max game is an absolutely horrible play. If you are going to enter a pot you want to take control of it straight away, and control the action on each subsequent betting round. 

Reasons why we raise:

1. Manipulate the size of the pot

2. For deception

3. For information

4. For value

5. To bluff

6. For 'advanced' forms of pot control

7. To gain a free card on a later round

8. To gain position 

9. To balance our raising ranges.

10. For isolation

How does limping in achieve any of the above? If you are limping in with a certain range from a certain position and then open folding to anything more than a 'small raise' then you are simply playing in an exploitable fashion and any good player will pick up on this and punish you for it.

You say the table is passive. Isn't this a good enough reason than any to raise?!?!

All the best

Browndog

DOHHHHHHH

I wouldn't do it personally.....But wouldn't say it was terrible really its only 50p

Theres easier ways to win big pots - Its just a nothing play, isnt great isnt bad, works sometimes.

I dunno not alot to say about it really apart from raise turn!!! lol

ChirpyChip

Thanks Guys!

ChirpyChip

No hard feelings anyways.. just silly poker debate....

Eagle26

fair enough im wrong, my bad. cheers for replys. chirpy if i see ya dtd ill buy ya a pint lol

ChirpyChip

Don't Be Silly Geeza... we here to talk about these things and help each other! What the forum is all about!!

BlackFish3

OI dont listen to brownndog him and chirpy are brothers!! obvs just sticking up for each other

Eagle26

this is actually a really stupid thread and cant believe ive posted it lol in the heat of the moment i was so sure that i had done nothin wrong and i was right (egg on my face!!) but thinkin about it now and reading the replys i totally see im wrong and im a big enough bloke to hold my hands up! I also really did butcher the hand didnt i lol??? why did check call the turn??? strange!! ah well lessons to be learnt. just wanna clear this up though i aint a limpin machine and browndog whilst i appreciate your time and effort in your post on why not too limp its stuff i actually do know (obviously not as well as u) so im kinda of surprised by myself for postin this and even tryin to defend it - ive had one too many tonight!! thanks again. gl at the tables - Andy

BlackFish3

You have an amazing name

Eagle26

actually changed my mind im very happy i posted this thread, because its simply made me realise im no where near as good as i think i am and i have some major leaks in my game!  (im writing this now as ive just dropped a buy-in at Nl50 with second pair 3 barreled him and he had trips-convinced he was drawin-quality play and readin abilitys eagle!!) but anyway just analysing this one particular hand as opened my eyes a bit. as much as the criticism hurts my pride its definatly gonna help me improve my game! and judging by how how ive played tonight it needs alot of improvin!

BlackFish3

keep posting hands

Eagle26

well just sat down at the table with browndog at nl200 and NEVER limped once lol learnin already - obviously not about bankroll management as im not rolled to play there, oh well.  made a nice little profit anyways but wont be sittin at those tables again in a hurry a few bad beats or bad plays and ur bankroll can be destroyed so got out of there whilst the goin was good - only sat there to prove to myself i can play against these boys! (although i will point out, i do have a fair bit in my account to allow me to have a little crack at this level-im not a complete loony!) Quickly back on the subject of limpin, browndog u say never limp ever into a pot, which i totally agree with by the way - the amount of limpin at this table was huge, players limpin into pots all the time, so i guess there is players as bad as me at these levels too?  anyway as im in the mood for postin hands - was this the right shove here with the queens?? obviously i got lucky and come from behind on the turn, but was ahead slightly pre-flop. would all of u big hitters just shove here or call and take a flop, hopin its a low board-then shove?? reckon he called coz he had read this thread earlier lol ...

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Eagle26	Small blind		£1.00	£1.00	£222.20
petebryn	Big blind		£2.00	£3.00	£270.74
	Your hole cards	Q Q
BrownnDog	Fold
style2737	Fold
xxxx	Raise		£6.00	£9.00	£242.14
GliterBabe	Fold
Eagle26	Raise		£17.00	£26.00	£205.20
petebryn	Fold
xxxx	Raise		£60.00	£86.00	£182.14
Eagle26	All-in		£205.20	£291.20	£0.00
xxxx	Call		£157.20	£448.40	£24.94
Eagle26	Show	Q Q
xxxx	Show	K A
Flop
		A 7 2
Turn
		Q
River
		3
Eagle26	Win	Three Queens	£446.60		£446.60

Eyeman

I think on a 25p / 50p table we can try and see a few cheap flops (I know you should play the same game regardless of the blinds, but really, that's just ****).
As long as you are prepared to
1. Fold to a substantive raise
2. Walk away from missing the flop (including gut-shots)
3. Understand that when you get trips, your kicker is poor
then I see no reason not to limp on low blind cash tables. In my experience, you tend to win more with 67 than AA (not more often, more cash) as nobody expects 67 in the pot.
As for Chirpy, he had the option to raise - he's losing with his trip 6s to a lot of hands that have limped or blinded in. If you don't raise and someone cathces a monster, I don't feel you have any right to complain.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: 7-6 off utg debate:

'limping in' in ANY position in a 6-max game is an absolutely horrible play. If you are going to enter a pot you want to take control of it straight away, and control the action on each subsequent betting round.  Reasons why we raise: 1. Manipulate the size of the pot 2. For deception 3. For information 4. For value 5. To bluff 6. For 'advanced' forms of pot control 7. To gain a free card on a later round 8. To gain position  9. To balance our raising ranges. 10. For isolation How does limping in achieve any of the above? If you are limping in with a certain range from a certain position and then open folding to anything more than a 'small raise' then you are simply playing in an exploitable fashion and any good player will pick up on this and punish you for it. You say the table is passive. Isn't this a good enough reason than any to raise?!?! All the best Browndog
Posted by BrownnDog

Every single inexperienced player should print that off, & paste it onto a Word Document, then memorise it, or have it next to the PC when playing Online Poker.

It's a brilliant precis of everything that's wrong with serial-limping, a fault so many newbies share, & why a Raise is so much better.

Dazler

In Response to Re: 7-6 off utg debate:

In Response to Re: 7-6 off utg debate : Every single inexperienced player should print that off, & paste it onto a Word Document, then memorise it, or have it next to the PC when playing Online Poker. It's a brilliant precis of everything that's wrong with serial-limping, a fault so many newbies share, & why a Raise is so much better.
Posted by Tikay10

interesting debate i can understand that limping with a hand like that shows weakness imidiately but i do this myself on the odd ocassion. Sometimes just to see a cheap flop. After reading the points to something that i just put down to bad luck or luck on how you look at it. But has made me think on my play and the basis of how to play good poker not ok poker. I shall ponder on this guys thanks for the brain check. Its always good to get these type of threads cos it reminds us how bad we play sometimes, which is a good thing in my opinion.

DOHHHHHHH

Nice pot  Eagle !!!!

If only I had the bottle to go an play up there......


I have the br(Well at least for nl100, maybe 200 dependin on how tight u are)....but to me, I dont care if I had 100k in my account, losing 200 quid is losing 200 quid!

People say if u are rolled for it, a £300 bad beat doesnt hurt, COME OFF IT!!!! ITS 60 £5 NOTES!!!
Maybe i'll stop feeling like that if/when I get used to it?

Back to the old limping debate, at nl50 its never that bad an option, you know technically its not great - but playing 100+ bb's deep - its never gonna be THAT bad surely. In the example you gave it's the position I dont like, not the limp - but then again if ur in late position Id prefer a raise as you have the position....so yeh...fold or raise. lol - but limping in with 67 is probably one of the smallest mistakes ur gonna make - dnt lose any kip over it

loonytoons

Yeh poor play to limp, but we all do it sometimes (people who live in glass houses) but i personnally think chirpychips play was worse, limping with terrible rag aces with a five way pot, and then calling a half pot raise with bottom pair - or am i wrong??

Eyeman

The point to make here is that there were several limpers into the pot. That's several players with likely poor hands hoping to hit miracle cards. This happens a lot on Sky poker. Having read a couple of posts above, I am seriously thinking of trying out a "no limp" strategy in some cash, and see what happens.

loonytoons

In Response to Re: 7-6 off utg debate:

The point to make here is that there were several limpers into the pot. That's several players with likely poor hands hoping to hit miracle cards. This happens a lot on Sky poker. Having read a couple of posts above, I am seriously thinking of trying out a "no limp" strategy in some cash, and see what happens.
Posted by Eyeman

you will lose the lot to calling stations lool

philmenow

In Response to Re: 7-6 off utg debate:

In Response to Re: 7-6 off utg debate : Every single inexperienced player should print that off, & paste it onto a Word Document, then memorise it, or have it next to the PC when playing Online Poker. It's a brilliant precis of everything that's wrong with serial-limping, a fault so many newbies share, & why a Raise is so much better.
Posted by Tikay10

serial-limping=limping into every/almost every pot with any/every 2 cards,im guessing.?..so therefore the odd limp(with ur fav hand out of position) probably aint that bad,especially 'when you hit and get paid big'...correct me if im wrong...

loonytoons

We all agree limping is 'bad' but, i have sat at the tables, or seen most players at tables on here at some time or another, and i can state as fact, without exception including poker analysts, seen everyone of them limp into pots at some time or another, (and thats not with AA,KK etc hoping for a re-raise) Yes we all know its wrong, but everyone still does it, maybe not always but always sometimes - no matter what people say. I suppose its like the sign saying 'wet paint' and we go and touch it when we really shoulnt lol.

HAL_9000

Great post by Browndog and he is 100% correct....However

We must always remember that players WILL limp; and play our game accordingly

Reasons for this may be as limp as the limp itself but they are there so factor this into the equation

eg Doyle Brunson says if he wins the pot he is in the next hand,  this alone may be reason enough.

A more valid reason would be because you believe you can out play them after the flop.

But tbf if i can see a cheap flop then thats what im there for?

The fact is that limping is common place on here and aggression is also common, various players adopting various techniques. 

I would say 40% of the tables i play someone moans about somebodys play, in fact last night one was incredibly offensive and should have been warned.

In eagles 1st example with no PFR what is to say that Eagle wasn't playing 76s

The betting also indicates Eagles analysis that the table is passive.

Eagle26

the second bunch of replys on here have made me feel alot better and not such a complete muppet, like i said last night im not known for limping i very rarely do it, but 7-6 is a hand i like and utg i thought a flat call wasnt such a horrible play on a 6 seater on a passive table because if someone was to raise say £2 for example i would happily call that and take the flop knowing the guy prob has a big pair  or ak/aq and could try and take his stack if i did hit . if i raised from this position with this hand (say 3xbb-£2) and someone is sittin there with a big hand, they are gonna raise-probably to about a fiver, so its costing me five quid to see the flop rather than 2 quid - not the best example i know, but just trying to let u know what i was thinkin with the utg limp. 
also something i didnt pick up on last night, was chirpy also LIMPED so he is just as much to blame for the outcome of this hand as i am lol kind of surprising after how much he critizised me for limpin!
i was watching some high stakes poker this morning on dvd and they were playin 9 handed $500,000 minimum buy-in high stakes cash - players like Brunson, Esfandiari, Farha, Hellmuth,  Antonius etc some of the best players in world and too be honest although there wasnt much limpin, now and again they all limped into the pot at some stage! farha from early position with 7-8 (similar to my hand)! these guys would absolutly crush anyone of you on skypoker and they all occasionally limped. so are these guys wrong? are we any position to criticize there play?... once again thanks to all the replys on this thread - Andy

DOHHHHHHH

You limped in and saw a cheap flop, but have only just realised, that everyone else limped too???

Haha cmon Andy how much had u had to drink !!!

Brilliant!

DeuceAK_47

Im very suprised no1 has said to fold this hand utg, if the table is extremely nitty i may open raise this hand but most of the time this is a instant fold, maybe im being too nitty myself? has any1 got any good reasons to open this hand utg?

Eagle26

haha! told ya i had a few!! nah what i meant was that i never posted anything about chirpy also limping into the pot last night when all this kicked off....u playin tonight anyway bud? ill have a game with ya later if your on