Advice please......

Tikay10

Hi Guys.

On the Ask tikay" Thread, a Gent by the name of "Spudendous" explains his exit deep in last night's £12,000 Guaranteed Bounty Huinter - he got 14th I believe.

He asks if he played it correctly.

So....

Did he play it correrctly?

What would YOU do? And why?

Your input would be very much appreciated.

Here's the question......

Hi

"....I finished 14th, my name is STUPENDOUS and although I was pleased with my performance, I am slightly annoyed with myself for going out. I had about 178000 chips and raised 4times the blind 32000 with AK suited and chewy42310(who made the final table) went all in. I wasnt sure whether to fold and lose 32000 chips but still be in the tournament or go for it. As I had AK suited, I went 'all in'. Chewy had a pair of 7's and needless to say they held up and I went out. I know I would have made the final table had i won the hand, was my move understandable or reckless? I think Chewy was brave as I think I would have folded a raise with a pair of 7's.

Regards....."

Tikay10

My take on this?

I do as he did - I'm not folding at that stage, in that spot, almost ever. He can just as easily have A-Q, A-J, or even be re-stealing with air. And if he has a pair, we are still even money. This is our chance to get a Tourney-winning stack, & I'm not backing down.

I prefer, in an ideal world, to be the shover, or re-shover, as it increases my odds if I can force a fold, but we don't always have that luxury.

But it's a very "sharp" structure at that stage, & whether we like it or not, we have to take our races at this stage. And to win Tourneys, we have to win our races.

The longer a Tourney goes on, the bigger the Blinds are, the more powerful A-K becomes.

I'm calling there every time.

The other guys play, with the 7's? I'm not interested in what he does, or how or why he does it. We can't change HIS play, all we can do is optimise ours. It's not relevant, or helpful, to debate his play - it's OUR play which we have control over.

For me, Mr Stupendous, you played it correctly.

DAVEYZZ

you played it right imo,i did the same on thursday in live comp on the button ,i had 10/10 villian had aj and hit ace....but im always going ofr the win at that stage....gl

robc

in my opinion you have to call there, i said in a previous thread that i think its ok to fold AK pre flop in midd stages of a tournament in certain situations but here you have put 4 big blinds in the pot already its getting late in the tournament and if you fold your left with around 18BB and your probably going to end up shoving in a few orbits with a worse hand. Also you get alot of people with big stacks at this stage shoving over the top of a raise as alot of people will fold there hands so you can probably put chewy on a large range of hands here, IMO just a cooler and was the right descion to try push on and win the tourny

 congrats on the 14th place and hope next time you can progress further

TheAAces

Tikay says you made the correct play, but do you want to be getting your chips all-in for your tournament life when you are at best 50:50, even if he has two live cards you are only 65/35 to win. His play indicated a pair, a stronger pair than 7s, and he happened to win the race.

If you fold in this spot you still have 146,000 chips and enough to ladder up the money further or perhaps make the final table and win it.

I saw Gus Hansen in the Aussie Millions faced with a similar decision with AKs to an all-in with 7s, ok the guy acted first and got his chips into the pot, but Gus Hansen decided that he was a better player than to call off with AKs when he had an edge over the rest of the table - Hansen eventually went on to win the tournament, which I believe was the subject of his recent book about the journey through a winning tournament.

Just because you have been dealt AKs you do not necessarily have to play it, there is no rule saying you can't put it down. Calling off 146,000 chips with AKs when you still have 20bb is by no means an optimal play imo. Of course if you have 10 bb then it is a lot different and you have to take your chances.

BrownnDog

You played it absolutely correct. At this stage of a tournament when the blinds are so big relative to the stack sizes these situations are unavoidable.   

If I had any constructive criticism to offer it would be to adjust your raise sizing pre-flop. When the stacks are shallow relative to the blinds I like to raise less, say 2.2x -2.8x, as this allows us to manipulate and control the pot size more effectively. If we open consistently at this stage for the same amount, or thereabouts, with all of our pre-flop opening range then it provides us with two distinct advantages:

1. When we are 'stealing' the blinds, as we frequently should be at this stage of the tournament, our opponent will be unable to get a read on our hand strength. Also when we do attempt to steal we can get away from hands than we don't intend to call 3 bets with more cheaply and thus preserving our precious tournament chips.

2. In situations like yours, when we have a premium hand, if we raise a smaller amount as a percentage of our stack it may encourage our opponents to come over the top of us with a much wider range of hands, as they may believe that we are not 'pot committed' or that we in fact have weaker holdings and therefore have a greater amount of fold equity vs us.

You play that hand perfectly fine. AKs is such a premium hand you can never profitably raise fold it when you are only 17BB deep and have already put 4BB into the pot; especially in the late stages when our opponents will have short stacks and be pushing much wider vs us.

Also the tournament dynamic rewards bigger stacks in the late stages of a tournament so a chance to double up here and have a 44BB stacks is too lucrative of an opportunity to turn down.         

unknown_username

I think I agree with  AAces. The other guy is already all in, so you are definitely going to the river. If you are very lucky he has an Ace with a weaker card, if he has PP or 2 live cards things get ropey.

Mind you, this is a call I have made myself, this is one of the ways I often bust out of tourneys.

robc

In Response to Re: Advice please......:

Tikay says you made the correct play, but do you want to be getting your chips all-in for your tournament life when you are at best 50:50, even if he has two live cards you are only 65/35 to win. His play indicated a pair, a stronger pair than 7s, and he happened to win the race. If you fold in this spot you still have 146,000 chips and enough to ladder up the money further or perhaps make the final table and win it. I saw Gus Hansen in the Aussie Millions faced with a similar decision with AKs to an all-in with 7s, ok the guy acted first and got his chips into the pot, but Gus Hansen decided that he was a better player than to call off with AKs when he had an edge over the rest of the table - Hansen eventually went on to win the tournament, which I believe was the subject of his recent book about the journey through a winning tournament. Just because you have been dealt AKs you do not necessarily have to play it, there is no rule saying you can't put it down. Calling off 146,000 chips with AKs when you still have 20bb is by no means an optimal play imo. Of course if you have 10 bb then it is a lot different and you have to take your chances.
Posted by TheAAces

 Very true i hate calling all ins with AK, but at this stage of the tourny chewy could very easily be doing this with aq-aj suited expecting him to fold with a high percentage of hands cause he doesn't want to risk his tourny life. i no it turned out he has 77 but that proves chewy is doing this move with a large range? i personally like tikay would rather be the one shoving but at this stage i think you need to take the risk to try push on and win the tournament remember this is a bounty hunter aswell (i think tikay said it was in the original post lol) which if anything makes chewys range larger as its just as much about taking heads in the latter stages of these tournaments as making the money.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Advice please......:

In Response to Re: Advice please...... :  Very true i hate calling all ins with AK, but at this stage of the tourny chewy could very easily be doing this with aq-aj suited expecting him to fold with a high percentage of hands cause he doesn't want to risk his tourny life. i no it turned out he has 77 but that proves chewy is doing this move with a large range? i personally like tikay would rather be the one shoving but at this stage i think you need to take the risk to try push on and win the tournament remember this is a bounty hunter aswell (i think tikay said it was in the original post lol) which if anything makes chewys range larger as its just as much about taking heads in the latter stages of these tournaments as making the money.
Posted by robc

Correct. This widens everyone's range considerably.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Advice please......:

You played it absolutely correct. At this stage of a tournament when the blinds are so big relative to the stack sizes these situations are unavoidable.    If I had any constructive criticism to offer it would be to adjust your raise sizing pre-flop. When the stacks are shallow relative to the blinds I like to raise less, say 2.2x -2.8x, as this allows us to manipulate and control the pot size more effectively. If we open consistently at this stage for the same amount, or thereabouts, with all of our pre-flop opening range then it provides us with two distinct advantages: 1. When we are 'stealing' the blinds, as we frequently should be at this stage of the tournament, our opponent will be unable to get a read on our hand strength. Also when we do attempt to steal we can get away from hands than we don't intend to call 3 bets with more cheaply and thus preserving our precious tournament chips. 2. In situations like yours, when we have a premium hand, if we raise a smaller amount as a percentage of our stack it may encourage our opponents to come over the top of us with a much wider range of hands, as they may believe that we are not 'pot committed' or that we in fact have weaker holdings and therefore have a greater amount of fold equity vs us. You play that hand perfectly fine. AKs is such a premium hand you can never profitably raise fold it when you are only 17BB deep and have already put 4BB into the pot; especially in the late stages when our opponents will have short stacks and be pushing much wider vs us. Also the tournament dynamic rewards bigger stacks in the late stages of a tournament so a chance to double up here and have a 44BB stacks is too lucrative of an opportunity to turn down.         
Posted by BrownnDog

"Inducing the Shove, yay"

Love it!

DeuceAK_47

In Response to Re: Advice please......:

You played it absolutely correct. At this stage of a tournament when the blinds are so big relative to the stack sizes these situations are unavoidable.    If I had any constructive criticism to offer it would be to adjust your raise sizing pre-flop. When the stacks are shallow relative to the blinds I like to raise less, say 2.2x -2.8x, as this allows us to manipulate and control the pot size more effectively. If we open consistently at this stage for the same amount, or thereabouts, with all of our pre-flop opening range then it provides us with two distinct advantages: 1. When we are 'stealing' the blinds, as we frequently should be at this stage of the tournament, our opponent will be unable to get a read on our hand strength. Also when we do attempt to steal we can get away from hands than we don't intend to call 3 bets with more cheaply and thus preserving our precious tournament chips. 2. In situations like yours, when we have a premium hand, if we raise a smaller amount as a percentage of our stack it may encourage our opponents to come over the top of us with a much wider range of hands, as they may believe that we are not 'pot committed' or that we in fact have weaker holdings and therefore have a greater amount of fold equity vs us. You play that hand perfectly fine. AKs is such a premium hand you can never profitably raise fold it when you are only 17BB deep and have already put 4BB into the pot; especially in the late stages when our opponents will have short stacks and be pushing much wider vs us. Also the tournament dynamic rewards bigger stacks in the late stages of a tournament so a chance to double up here and have a 44BB stacks is too lucrative of an opportunity to turn down.         
Posted by BrownnDog

Really good answer, 100% agreed

freechips1

give that dog a bone

beaneh

Getting to the final table is one thing but getting there with big chips and taking down the top prize i a whole other.

It's a simple calculation to see whether it's a good call or not (hint it's AK it is!).

And yeah then re-read BD's post so I don't have to type it out aswell!

BlackFish3

Surely this is like the easiest decision in the world :S
i dont understand why you wold fold... in the words of the WSOP commentator... is it jessie may or sumin like that?

'what is he waiting for?! pocket quads??'

cottlad

Raise was too big preflop imo but the rest of the hand played itself... ul

beaneh

In Response to Re: Advice please......:

Tikay says you made the correct play, but do you want to be getting your chips all-in for your tournament life when you are at best 50:50, even if he has two live cards you are only 65/35 to win. His play indicated a pair, a stronger pair than 7s, and he happened to win the race. If you fold in this spot you still have 146,000 chips and enough to ladder up the money further or perhaps make the final table and win it. I saw Gus Hansen in the Aussie Millions faced with a similar decision with AKs to an all-in with 7s, ok the guy acted first and got his chips into the pot, but Gus Hansen decided that he was a better player than to call off with AKs when he had an edge over the rest of the table - Hansen eventually went on to win the tournament, which I believe was the subject of his recent book about the journey through a winning tournament. Just because you have been dealt AKs you do not necessarily have to play it, there is no rule saying you can't put it down. Calling off 146,000 chips with AKs when you still have 20bb is by no means an optimal play imo. Of course if you have 10 bb then it is a lot different and you have to take your chances.
Posted by TheAAces

This is all horribly wrong. You dont want to ladder you want to win, tournies are top heavy prize structures. 

I would say a good rule is 20bb NEVER FOLD AKs ever ever ever (unless Tikay open raises the button).

edit if we won the race does the play in the hand get questioned by the OP?

EDIT 2 also remember it's a BH with added value for knockouts, AND it's 6 handed!!!!

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Advice please......:
[QUOTE]Surely this is like the easiest decision in the world :S i dont understand why you wold fold... in the words of the WSOP commentator... is it jessie may or sumin like that? 'what is he waiting for?! pocket quads??'
Posted by BlackFish3

To you & me, maybe, yes, an easy call. but he's quite inexperienced, & was seeking advice as to not just WHAT he should have done, but why.

The WSOP commentator you are thinking of is Mr Norman Chad. Jesse does not do WSOP commentary.

beaneh

Play for the win, AK is huge, win races, it's the way to profit in tournies.

silentbob

I can't really add add much to what others have already said here but fwiw, I'm calling every day & twice on Sundays here.

This deep in a tourney should generally be about going for the win & nothing else imo (pretty much the ONLY time I make an exception here is in a satellite)

NColley

anyone who folds that isnt going for the win.
deep in a tourney someone gives you ak with 15-20BBs left, well you just can't fold unless theres a double all in, in front of you in which case fold away.

HAL_9000

I think in general we can agree it is a call made by 90%+ of us however perhaps it is time to discuss the table dynamic as it seems fairly deep you could perhaps of made the call on a number of previous hands. If you look back through your HH it may help educate you on future decisions either way.

If he had been busy for the previous few hands then perhaps this affected your process

No criticism just offering advice

Keep Smiling

HAL_9000

BlackFish3

In Response to Re: Advice please......:

In Response to Re: Advice please...... : [QUOTE ]Surely this is like the easiest decision in the world :S i dont understand why you wold fold... in the words of the WSOP commentator... is it jessie may or sumin like that? 'what is he waiting for?! pocket quads??' Posted by BlackFish3

To you & me, maybe, yes, an easy call. but he's quite inexperienced, & was seeking advice as to not just WHAT he should have done, but why . The WSOP commentator you are thinking of is Mr Norman Chad. Jesse does not do WSOP commentary.
Posted by Tikay10

thats it... norman chad is amazing lol. where did i get jessie may from? i know poker obvs... but what show?

TommyD

I would consider open folding in this spot.  But the most important thing here is knowing why you are doing any action and knowing how you are going to react to the actions of others so you have already got your decision ready.

If you raise here you should already decide how to react to a shove.  Whether to take a flip or not.  Even if you are up against AQ or AJ you're still not a lock preflop.  You decide before your action if you are willing to put your tourney life on the line in a probably coinflip or if you want to open fold to ladder further, or if you want to raise for the blinds or build a pot for the flop with the intention to fold to an all in to protect your stack.

Remember, why you are doing these actions are all important.  To give you an opinion as to how I would of played the hand I'd need to know a lot more about position, relative stack sizes etc.

acebarry10

In Response to Re: Advice please......:

I would consider open folding in this spot.  But the most important thing here is knowing why you are doing any action and knowing how you are going to react to the actions of others so you have already got your decision ready. If you raise here you should already decide how to react to a shove.  Whether to take a flip or not.  Even if you are up against AQ or AJ you're still not a lock preflop.  You decide before your action if you are willing to put your tourney life on the line in a probably coinflip or if you want to open fold to ladder further, or if you want to raise for the blinds or build a pot for the flop with the intention to fold to an all in to protect your stack. Remember, why you are doing these actions are all important.  To give you an opinion as to how I would of played the hand I'd need to know a lot more about position, relative stack sizes etc.
Posted by TommyD

+1

crow01

even if i had just been moved to the table, and it was my first hand.....

call, call, call......

in it to win it

OMahonyO

Beaneh`s Mean`s Heinz``...........imo

beaneh

Pls dont open fold AK especially not 6 handed.

TommyD

In Response to Re: Advice please......:

Pls dont open fold AK especially not 6 handed.
Posted by beaneh

I said I would consider it but the most important thing about any action is that we know why we are doing it, not just doing it because we are told we should.  And there are spots to open fold AK, as well as spots to shove AK, as well as spots to three/four bet with AK and so on and so forth.

acebarry10

Tell you what, I want to be the one whos pushed with the PP and Im saying please, please, please call me with just A high

NColley

In Response to Re: Advice please......:

Tell you what, I want to be the one whos pushed with the PP and Im saying please, please, please call me with just A high
Posted by acebarry10

I'm willing to take AK v 77 this deep everytime because the 4/5/6 times you win with it you have a stack capable of winning the tournament.

A) You don't know what hes shoved all in with
If he had AQ there would you still say you'd of folded, or say if the poster had decided not to put the result in before asking his question 99% of people would be saying all in. Results orientated.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Advice please......:

In Response to Re: Advice please...... : To you & me, maybe, yes, an easy call. but he's quite inexperienced, & was seeking advice as to not just WHAT he should have done, but why . The WSOP commentator you are thinking of is Mr Norman Chad. Jesse does not do WSOP commentary. Posted by Tikay10

thats it... norman chad is amazing lol. where did i get jessie may from? i know poker obvs... but what show?
Posted by BlackFish3

Jesse My does all the "made for TV" Matchroom stuff these days, & as such, has almost a stranglehold on TV Poker Commentary on "Big Telly".

He was the commentator for "Late Night Poker" - the original series, when you were still a boy, I'd imagine - & he actually played in one heat under a pseudonym, "Mickey Dane". Mickey Dane is also the main character in a book he wrote, "Shut Up & Deal". The "Dane" surname came from his place of residence these days - Denmark, though he is American by birth.

His wife, Jckie, is a professional poker photographer, & is said to own the largest database of poker player's photographs in the world.

Jesse was at one time the Editor of CardPlayer Europe.

He is a Ltd Company, if that makes sense, & his company name is "Luckbox Entertainment"!

He is a fine poker player, too, &, off-screen, a very funny, warm & endearing man.