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Would you call or fold? Live game

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  • Action_DanAction_Dan
    edited April 2010
    The point Tikay is making (correct me if I'm wrong) is simply that as recreational player, we want to get as much value from our £30 buy in as possible - we want to enjoy the live experience, the banter etc for as long as possible so if that means folding few hands early, that suits us! When we pay £5 for cinema ticket, we don't want to then have someone tell us what happens in the film because we want two hours entertainment and experience it for ourselves...likewise when I pay £40 for Spurs ticket, I don't want someone to tell me the result after one minute because I want to watch the match, get the full 90 minutes experience and value for my money! 

    Ok folding AK here isn't the optimal poker play and it's snap call for those who are in the tournament to win/earn some decent money etc (as I would be looking to do) but for some, who are there just for nights entertainment (instead of spending £30 on drinking session) there's no real problem with folding! I've sat at table with someone before who let themselves get down to 2BB's before shoving because his mates were still in the tournament so rather than sitting on his own waiting for them to finish or hitting the blackjack tables as he would inevitably do, he decided to wait it out - eventually shoved with JJ and doubled up so then could spend a little longer in the tournament! 

    To the "proper" players around the table, this was met with some under the breath comments like "you should've shoved earlier because you're still short stacked after doubling up" which is of course sensible tournament strategy but in this instance, holding out suited this players needs so who are we to argue?
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  • kirstiikirstii
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
     Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : I understand what you said, but given that it is a re-deal with a tilty shover it's a go go go scenario.  The flat caller really wouldn't scare me, considering that his initial flat-calling range knowing nothing of the intention of the guy behind  (unless he's giving off some massive stack of chips in hand/acting out of turn tell), is super wide and once the action goes open-reship and we call what range of hands is he calling with there?? IF we had shoved do you think the guy who flat called is calling all in with QQ? If this was a bigger buyin comp and or I thought we had some major skill advantage over the entire field then go for it as is without the misdeal previously I would sigh fold with it i'm grinning.
    Posted by beaneh
    He called one shove so why wouldn't he call a second shove with even better odds on his money? With the speed he called i believe he would have.
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  • kirstiikirstii
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    Rule number one - If you're like me and do not look at your cards until you have to act, if there's a misdeal or you get a walk in the BB, DON'T look at your hand - it doesn't matter and can only hurt you. I think there are more dynamics to look at.  Did the dope of the piece mate it clear he was shoving blind before you or the fellow behind you were about to act?  How was the guy with the Queens holding himself?  While I can agree with the fold, the way the queens have been played is a little perplexing.  My regular live haunt has people calling standard raises with all manner of trash (normally suited of course) in the early going.  Those Queens could easily have been KJ, KT, A8 etc.  Also if you snap shoved would he have mucked the queens?  It's very possible but of course depends on any read or history you have with this player.  Was there any or was he a blank canvas to you?
    Posted by TommyD
    It was only the first level and he hadn't played a hand yet, personally i don't want to get involved with AK with another player still to act, i believe the skill level at my table was below average and by risking all my chips on this hand i'm nullifying the skill advantage that i believe i had over most of the table.

    In reference to optimal strategy, isn't it optimal to play more boards against worse players than it is to get it all in pre flop? That's my opinion anyway.
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  • kirstiikirstii
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    Beaneh. you need to read my reply properly, please. This is Live Poker, played by a recreational player, for fun. It changes the paramaters completely. I know you are a hard-nosed Pro, & very good at what you do, but most players are not, & we need to address their particular stance when replying. Blackfish. One of THE most important skills in Live Poker is paying attention to what is happening around us, it is a HUGE asset to a "Live Poker" player, more so - MUCH more so, than in Online Poker. In fact, it applies to observation generally, because you clearly missed what the OP said.....(my enboldenment). The hand is redealt and i get AK of clubs and make a 3x raise, the player to my left calls , and the player two to my left shoves his whole stack into the middle without looking at his cards, it's folded round to me. What hand do you put the flat-caller on? Do you know, or think, they may also call? If they do, what range of hands can you put them on? Do we really need to take a flip (against the flat-caller) at this stage? In my case, the answer is "NO". Because I expect to cash in this Tourney, (because it is Live, where the standard of play is "mixed" at best) and to do so, I do NOT need to take a flip this early. The benefit of an early double-up in such a comp is also dubious. IMO, of course.  
    Posted by Tikay10
    I don't know, i just had a look at sharkscope! Yeesh!!
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  • BrownnDogBrownnDog
    edited April 2010
    What would people here do in the exact same situation in the first level of the World Series of Poker main event? 
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  • TommyDTommyD
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : It was only the first level and he hadn't played a hand yet, personally i don't want to get involved with AK with another player still to act, i believe the skill level at my table was below average and by risking all my chips on this hand i'm nullifying the skill advantage that i believe i had over most of the table. In reference to optimal strategy, isn't it optimal to play more boards against worse players than it is to get it all in pre flop? That's my opinion anyway.
    Posted by kirstii
    I agree with the point you raised under optimal strategy and as I stated in my OP I can agree with the fold.  From your reply I'm surmising that you haven't played against the fellow with Queens before (in other games apart from this tourney) and that was what I was referencing when I said 'blank canvas.'

    Some key points I'd just like to clear up:

    Was the tilt monkey making it obvious he was going to push all in blind before the Queens flatted your raise?

    How was the fellow with the Queens acting?  Did he quickly call your initial raise, did he look at his cards for the first time after your raise and if so what was his reaction?  Was he acting strong or weak?  When Mr Tilty shoved did he get excited?  How was he acting when you were in the tank?

    I can totally agree with the fold with an unknown quantity in the pot at this early stage and would of probably taken a similar line as you to try to avoid early flips to try and gain advantage of the edge I had over a longer period.
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  • OMahonyOOMahonyO
    edited April 2010
    Interesting thread this.  A question to those who would call.  What would be the worst hand you would call with?
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    What would people here do in the exact same situation in the first level of the World Series of Poker main event? 
    Posted by BrownnDog

    I would fold because i'd gone all the way to america and it's a 10k buyin. 30quid down the casino with a bunch of numpties who don't understand mis-deals, snap fist pump shove.
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    What would people here do in the exact same situation in the first level of the World Series of Poker main event? 
    Posted by BrownnDog
    Take away the money factor and I'm snap calling as its the right call. I'd like to think I could call if it was the EXACT situation. But $10k means more to me than it does to you so I'd cry, then use up so much time thinking about it, the clock would get called on me by some impatient woman, cry again. Then time out. Then donk off my stack in the next hour thinking "Why didn't I call?!?"
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    Interesting thread this.  A question to those who would call.  What would be the worst hand you would call with?
    Posted by OMahonyO
    88+ and AQs+
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  • penguin7penguin7
    edited April 2010
    I bet you are glad that someone else called so you could see his cards. Well done for getting away, I hope you went on to cash.

    I would have found that very difficult to lay down if I was sure he hadnt seen his hand. Even with the player still to act, that hand is strong. My thinking would be that unless he has AA/KK, I am likely to be racing at worst, plus playing the unknown hand.

    I have chips in the pot already, so with a 2nd caller, I am getting better than 3/1 for my call.

    Wont be calling it in vegas though !
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  • OMahonyOOMahonyO
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    What would people here do in the exact same situation in the first level of the World Series of Poker main event? 
    Posted by BrownnDog

    Lol, Id prob fold aces there,

    seriously though, personally,  it should be more often a call there as in the £30 mtt, I would think I had an edge on over half of the field, but in wsop, I would be everyone elses value more than likely, so I would need to take those gambles every time.

    In the heat of battle would I at wsop, lol, no way.
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : I would fold because i'd gone all the way to america and it's a 10k buyin. 30quid down the casino with a bunch of numpties who don't understand mis-deals, snap fist pump shove.
    Posted by beaneh

    Surely if you're playing a "bunch of numpties" then a player of your skill has a marked advantage and shouldn't be risking his tournament life with what may well be a coin flip (and is VERY unlikely to be more than 2/1 favourite).

    This strikes me as clearly non-optimal even if we're playing for matchsticks.
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : Surely if you're playing a "bunch of numpties" then a player of your skill has a marked advantage and shouldn't be risking his tournament life with what may well be a coin flip (and is VERY unlikely to be more than 2/1 favourite). This strikes me as clearly non-optimal even if we're playing for matchsticks.
    Posted by MereNovice
    How can you ever just assume these are a "bunch of numpties". Just because they have thrown a strop and shoved all in blind? Im pretty sure the likes of Ziigmund and Isildur1 have done such things. You try telling them they are numpties. This could be your best chance to take them out. It's unlikely but you can't just assume things. Based on the info given It's a call.
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : How can you ever just assume these are a "bunch of numpties". Just because they have thrown a strop and shoved all in blind? Im pretty sure the likes of Ziigmund and Isildur1 have done such things. You try telling them they are numpties. This could be your best chance to take them out. It's unlikely but you can't just assume things. Based on the info given It's a call.
    Posted by Strat91
    It wasn't my choice of words.
    I was merely pointing out that if someone thought that they were a "bunch of numpties" (and hence would hopefully have a significant edge) then it would be non-optimal to take a race for 180bb right at the start of a tournament.
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : It wasn't my choice of words. I was merely pointing out that if someone thought that they were a "bunch of numpties" (and hence would hopefully have a significant edge) then it would be non-optimal to take a race for 180bb right at the start of a tournament.
    Posted by MereNovice
    I see what your saying but even if he was a numptie then are you really 62%-38%  better than him?.. And even if you are, your giving the rest of the table a shot at taking hes chips too.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited May 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : Surely if you're playing a "bunch of numpties" then a player of your skill has a marked advantage and shouldn't be risking his tournament life with what may well be a coin flip (and is VERY unlikely to be more than 2/1 favourite). This strikes me as clearly non-optimal even if we're playing for matchsticks.
    Posted by MereNovice

    Most live smaller buyin and one day tournies have crapshooty style structures to get them finished so the benefit of having and wielding a big stack is massive. 

    Someone mentioned what would be the worst, i'd probably get it in with QQ+, AK.
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  • CowgomooCowgomoo
    edited May 2010
    I cant even see the discussion here, its quite clearly a call.
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  • meatOmeatO
    edited May 2010

    GOING ALL-IN 4TH HAND IN TO IT WITH ONLY ACE HIGH, NAH GET IT FOLDED THERES ALOT MORE TIME AND MUCH MORE BETTER POSITIONS JUST BE PATIENT. ON A POSITIVE HE HAS GIVEN HOW HE PLAYS AWAY A LOOSE MANIAC WITH TENDENCIES TO MAKE EMOTIONAL RATHER THEN INFORMED DECISIONS.

    BEST REGARDS

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  • kirstiikirstii
    edited May 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : I agree with the point you raised under optimal strategy and as I stated in my OP I can agree with the fold.  From your reply I'm surmising that you haven't played against the fellow with Queens before (in other games apart from this tourney) and that was what I was referencing when I said 'blank canvas.' Some key points I'd just like to clear up: Was the tilt monkey making it obvious he was going to push all in blind before the Queens flatted your raise? How was the fellow with the Queens acting?  Did he quickly call your initial raise, did he look at his cards for the first time after your raise and if so what was his reaction?  Was he acting strong or weak?  When Mr Tilty shoved did he get excited?  How was he acting when you were in the tank? I can totally agree with the fold with an unknown quantity in the pot at this early stage and would of probably taken a similar line as you to try to avoid early flips to try and gain advantage of the edge I had over a longer period.
    Posted by TommyD
    Sorry i missed a few of your questions tommy, no he didn't make it obvious he was going to shove.

    The guy with queens checked his cards twice before calling me. Up to that point that was all i could tell you about his actions.

    When the shove was made he didn't even flinch
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  • TommyDTommyD
    edited May 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : Sorry i missed a few of your questions tommy, no he didn't make it obvious he was going to shove. The guy with queens checked his cards twice before calling me. Up to that point that was all i could tell you about his actions. When the shove was made he didn't even flinch
    Posted by kirstii
    Yuck!  Mr Queens sounds like a tight passive to me.  I hate those guys early on in a tourney.  Had you called he probably would of tanked before calling.  Very good fold Kirstii.
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited May 2010
    Why is it a very good fold? Surely that is being results orientated?
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  • OMahonyOOMahonyO
    edited May 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    Why is it a very good fold? Surely that is being results orientated?
    Posted by BlackFish3

    yeah, i agree blackfish.. thing is , it is ++++EV to call here avery time.  However, if you are not able to get out to casinos much to play live, or you want to make your visit last a bit longer or for other reasons, it is good to fold imo.

    Deal or no deal.  If you are there and you have 2 boxes left.  One is £1, the other is £250,000.  The banker offers you £110,000 for your box.  What do you do??  It is +EV to say `no deal`.  

    You can have your +EV, and I will have £110,000 thanks
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited May 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : yeah, i agree blackfish.. thing is , it is ++++EV to call here avery time.  However, if you are not able to get out to casinos much to play live, or you want to make your visit last a bit longer or for other reasons, it is good to fold imo. Deal or no deal.  If you are there and you have 2 boxes left.  One is £1, the other is £250,000.  The banker offers you £110,000 for your box.  What do you do??  It is +EV to say `no deal`.   You can have your +EV, and I will have £110,000 thanks
    Posted by OMahonyO
    Yea that's true but I just think things like that should stay out of a poker strategy section. Or they should have a place more as side considerations and not for a justification to 'snap fold'. Your analogy can be distinguished from the hand because in your analogy if we chose to take the £110k then we are guaranteed it. In the hand if we choose to pass up the offer to double up as a 67% favourite, we do not know that there will be any better spots. So for example we could play for 3 hours and shove with QQ, get called by AKs... so we could have the choice of playing for 3 hours and flipping or playing 1 hand and being guaranteed a 67% favourite in the long run.
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  • OMahonyOOMahonyO
    edited May 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : Yea that's true but I just think things like that should stay out of a poker strategy section. Or they should have a place more as side considerations and not for a justification to 'snap fold'. Your analogy can be distinguished from the hand because in your analogy if we chose to take the £110k then we are guaranteed it. In the hand if we choose to pass up the offer to double up as a 67% favourite, we do not know that there will be any better spots. So for example we could play for 3 hours and shove with QQ, get called by AKs... so we could have the choice of playing for 3 hours and flipping or playing 1 hand and being guaranteed a 67% favourite in the long run.
    Posted by BlackFish3
    Yes , this is true.  I did not think of the best analogy there, but you get my drift.  I remember ages ago, I suggested having a psycology section, which seemed a good idea at the time, but now thinking about it, i dont think the traffic here is big enough.  But yeah, there are definitely other considerations for me other than what is +EV or not.
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited May 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : Yes , this is true.  I did not think of the best analogy there, but you get my drift.  I remember ages ago, I suggested having a psycology section, which seemed a good idea at the time, but now thinking about it, i dont think the traffic here is big enough.  But yeah, there are definitely other considerations for me other than what is +EV or not.
    Posted by OMahonyO
    Yea obviously there should be other considerations. Like if you couldn't afford to lose your BI etc... obviously it probably wasn't a good idea to register for the tourny if this was the case but that it's too late for that. So yea deffo other consideration such as enjoyment, I just assume poker strategy is concerned with optimal play in each situation. And then side considerations come into it. That's why I can't understand how it is ever a snap fold. It should probably be a snap call unless other factors come into play.
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