Did I play this bad or just unlucky..

DOHHHHHHH

Haha sorry I tried to explain it the best I could, I got a B at A level english language honest!!!

Skype anyone???

BlackFish3

Of course it changes, you can narrow his range down as the hand plays out.

Example:

Players raises UTG, you flat on BTN.

Flop 27Jr

He c bets

you call

Turn 3

He checks

Now at the start of the hand and on the flop part of the range you can assign him includes over pairs.

When he checks the turn you can assume these hands are far less likely.

So you can use his actions to define his hand range.

That make sense?

beaneh

In Response to Re: Did I play this bad or just unlucky..:

Haha sorry I tried to explain it the best I could, I got a B at A level english language honest!!! Skype anyone???
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

I have skype but your avatar scares me.

Imagine someone never folds pre and only continues post flop with a pair or a draw. 

so you raise and he calls

his range is any two cards.

flop K72r you bet and he calls with all Kx 7x 2x hands + 22/77/KK/K7/K2/72

when you are then presented with a turn card, you can reduce his range from this initial point. if he calls again on the turn of '3o' and you think he folds everything below a K. its now Kx/22/77/KK/K7/K2/72

To then change this slightly, change the person into a TAG player and allow for them to fold a whole bunch of junk preflop, you allow for them to reraise their bigger hands.

So say they have a range of (regardless of whether this is good or bad): a)  22-TT/KQo/56s-KQs/KJs/AQo/AQs/AJs  [10.1% of hands]

if they were to c/c the flop you have to look at what hands out of (a) he could continue in the hand with a check call, eg (22/77/88-TT/Kx/7x [6.2%]. If he were to c/r the flop you would narrow the range more. and see that suddenly his range has got very small for value ie (22/77 and possibly KQ or KJ [but it is quite hard to get paid off with those hands on such a wet board]). 6 combinations of sets and only possibly some top pair hands is alot less than the 10% of starting hands they called you with preflop [it's 0.5%].

Now imagine your player is loosey goosey preflop and check raises the flop quite alot whilst also check calling some too.

Their calling range pre could be b) JJ-22, AQs-ATs, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, 42s, 32s, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o [25%]

On the K72r flop if they c/r top pair+ that's 5.4% of starting hands or 1 in 5 of the times they have called preflop. This larger amount is because of the abundance of Kx hands in the calling range + the benefit of me adding K7s to 1) round up to 25% and 2) allow him to flop 2pr on K72!

Using this process of starting with a certain range and shaving off hands here and there using both the information given by your opponent and your analysis of what they are capable of and how they are thinking allows you to at each street judge what is your best course of action overall.

Does that rambling make sense?

beaneh

In Response to Re: Did I play this bad or just unlucky..:

Ok.... When you'r putting someone on a hand range throughout a hand..... Say he has raised from 2nd position and is a TAG player..... Hs opening 4x with any pair, suited pics, an occasionally mid con's. The flop is 2 5 8 rainbow, he c bets, and u float from the button with a hand that doesnt really matter, say AK. The turn is a 9, brings a flush draw. He bets again. U call. Turn pairs the 2 which is a blank unless he has quad 2's. He bets again. Is the hand range u have him on on the turn, still the hand range u have him on now, or is it constantly changing according to what he does? I trying to explain what I mean and not doing it well. If you have him on a range of hands on the turn, is this the same range u sud be basing ur decision on on the river, no matter what his action is?? Surely if every action he makes, defines his range in your own mind, it will be too easy for him to be deceptive and run over me? k k  2 2 on the board, and the river brings a k and he shoves the river, now the range of hands u can have him on here is the last king, or pocket aces - but prior to the river, he cud have a wide range of hands? Wheres the line come in between percieved and actual range come in?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

you start with a range of lots of hands and reduce it as you go, if you assume people are playing abc ie protecting hands, betting their good  hands etc then you can take information from them either betting a flop or checking it behind. If the board is AK6r and the preflop raiser checks behind you can be quite sure he most likely has either Kx or a pp 77-QQ. 

To deal with percieved/actual imagine this positional situation.

you limp in MP with 88, blackfish the fish raises the btn he's a fish so he does this alot but you haven't played with him before so you don't know. I have played with him though and know all about his fishtastic-ness and how often he raises the button so I re-raise my two paper napkins. 

It is now back on you and you have seen the action go raise and re-raise, regardless of the fact the raiser is in position I have more often than not got some pretty good hand. If you don't have enough money to comfortably set mine then you have to fold preflop. Against my perceived  range that is a good fold because its QQ+/AKo+ (2.6% of hands). The actual range could be something more like QQ+/67s-QJs/57s-J9s/AKo+ (5.9% of hands) or over twice as often as you may have thought. 

Remember everyone is playing their two cards, but they don't hit very often so more often than not people have to represent 2 other cards,. If by the river they are representing a specific strength of hand ie flush but their play throughout the hand hasn't credibly represented it then you should be suspicious.

edit in the example where you mention a KK22K board situation you need to realise that facing a bet on the river you have to deduce from your knowledge of the player whether you think they are capable of value betting 88-QQ, of bluffing with a 2!, of betting air to take you off a chop when you have no hand etc if he is only capable of betting 22 or Kx then you can really narrow down the amount of combinations that he could hold.

BlackFish3

Great example beaneh, now lets settle this on the 100,000nl HU tables k?

beaneh

In Response to Re: Did I play this bad or just unlucky..:

Great example beaneh, now lets settle this on the 100,000nl HU tables k?
Posted by BlackFish3

have already blown this months cash for points, no can do sowwy.

DOHHHHHHH

I read all that last night, and again this morning, and it made more sense the 2nd time, so hopefully if I keep going through it and trying to make my own examples up I'll start to get it all.

Good stuff, ty.

beaneh

In Response to Re: Did I play this bad or just unlucky..:

I read all that last night, and again this morning, and it made more sense the 2nd time, so hopefully if I keep going through it and trying to make my own examples up I'll start to get it all. Good stuff, ty.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Just post hands and write any guff you're thinking about it. If it's wrong you'll be told so and can improve if it's not then you can build on what you are already doing right.

yb

Great posts beaneh.

You know you said how if you wanted to 3 bet someone wide from the blinds because you thought they were abusing the button, that you might have a 3 bet range of QQ+/67s-QJs/57s-J9s/AKo+

Does this mean that you hardly ever 3 bet hands such as JJ/TT/AQs/AQo etc? Because I would quite often with these types of hands, maybe not so much if I thought someone had a tight opening range, but definitely to the more laggy players. Are we not better off 3 betting pre rather than calling from the blinds and playing the hand oop?

beaneh

In Response to Re: Did I play this bad or just unlucky..:

Great posts beaneh. You know you said how if you wanted to 3 bet someone wide from the blinds because you thought they were abusing the button, that you might have a 3 bet range of QQ+/67s-QJs/57s-J9s/AKo+ Does this mean that you hardly ever 3 bet hands such as JJ/TT/AQs/AQo etc? Because I would quite often with these types of hands, maybe not so much if I thought someone had a tight opening range, but definitely to the more laggy players. Are we not better off 3 betting pre rather than calling from the blinds and playing the hand oop?
Posted by yb

The ranges I gave were because you have to start somewhere. People aren't likely going to write down a guide of the exact types of hands they play and especially not then tell their opponents. As you say you want to construct your range to relate to the person/people you are playing against.

With regards to 3 and 4 betting competent players you need to construct your range with a view to playing well against their strategy which obviously comes from reads.

BlackFish3

In Response to Re: Did I play this bad or just unlucky..:

In Response to Re: Did I play this bad or just unlucky.. : have already blown this months cash for points, no can do sowwy.
Posted by beaneh

you heard how i destoryed brownndog on the 200nl free play tables HU then eh?

Now your scared to play me??... typical. So hard to get action around here. Too much rep.

LOL_RAISE

1st hand: 3b flop smallish he has lots of 2pair/sets/pair+draws that he will do something stupid with.
you say "if the board pairs on the turn i have massive fold equity" this is not what fold equity means.


DOH's hand:  cbet more flop, turn bet is fine, c/f river 'he calls with 2 overs and checks back river' so from that i would imagine that more likely that not he will be checking back with his missed flush draws (especially Axdd) and NOT turning his weaker made hands into bluffs / thin value bets. i would also imagine he checks back Jxdd


with regards to 3betting JJ/TT/AQ etc. the range beaneh gave is sort of a 'standard' polarised 3betting range where you either have super strong hands QQ+/AK, or weak hands 67s,89s, etc. when you start 3betting JJ/TT/AQ your range is now de-polarised as you have a middling hand strength value, it's best to 3bet these vs LP opens where their range is the widest, also vs people with low fold to 3bet%s which means they are calling with worse hands(yay!) low fold to 3bet is probably <60%. also you should be doing it vs people with high 4bet bluff frequency or a super wide 4bet value range (but they arent that common on sky) and you 5b jam over their 4b and print monies. against opponent who is a mixture of both these i.e low fold to 3bet but v. narrow 4b range it does allow you to play perfectly with 3b/f'ing however that's not very fun.

yb

In Response to Re: Did I play this bad or just unlucky..:

with regards to 3betting JJ/TT/AQ etc. the range beaneh gave is sort of a 'standard' polarised 3betting range where you either have super strong hands QQ+/AK, or weak hands 67s,89s, etc. when you start 3betting JJ/TT/AQ your range is now de-polarised as you have a middling hand strength value, it's best to 3bet these vs LP opens where their range is the widest, also vs people with low fold to 3bet%s which means they are calling with worse hands(yay!) low fold to 3bet is probably <60%. also you should be doing it vs people with high 4bet bluff frequency or a super wide 4bet value range (but they arent that common on sky) and you 5b jam over their 4b and print monies. against opponent who is a mixture of both these i.e low fold to 3bet but v. narrow 4b range it does allow you to play perfectly with 3b/f'ing however that's not very fun.
Posted by LOL_RAISE

Cheers mr raise, this makes a lot of sense!!