How much should I raise here?

scotty77

Hand History #274672610 (02:16 25/07/2010)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
V1	Small blind		£0.50	£0.50	£246.58
V2	Big blind		£1.00	£1.50	£161.47
	Your hole cards	4 A
ajs4385	Fold
scotty77	Raise		£3.00	£4.50	£389.13
MrSHussh	Fold
V1	Call		£2.50	£7.00	£244.08
V2	Call		£2.00	£9.00	£159.47
Flop
		2 8 9
v1	Check
v2	Bet		£6.75	£15.75	£152.72
scotty77	Call		£6.75	£22.50	£382.38
v1	Call		£6.75	£29.25	£237.33
Turn
		5
v1	Check
v2	Check
scotty77	Bet		£18.00	£47.25	£364.38
v1	Call		£18.00	£65.25	£219.33
v2	Fold
River
		J
v1	Bet		£33.00	£98.25	£186.33

Cowgomoo

depends if they are good or bad?

scotty77

Ah I typed out a reads but I must ahve pasted over them.

V1 is a multi-table reg.  Usually plays TAG but very capable of LAG. 

V2 is a massive fish who has ran up a stack, I've been playing tonnes of pots in position with him/isolating him cos he makes weird bluffs/gets involved with TKnk hands and doesn't like to let go.

Cowgomoo

Looks like he either has a small flush or maybe a weirdly played set. If he was more on the tight side I'd go for like 78-85 or you could go big like 110 because he might see it as you 'spazzing out' as he took quite a weird line and the half pot donk looks like it doesn't want to get raised.

beaneh

this doesn't look like a set.

frush over frush for anyone.

think i'd make this raise quite small and depending on villain maybe fold to shove lol depends who it is.

harvey23

easy shove.

harvey23

easy shove.

TORTUS007

Would it be wrong to just double his £33 bet ?? and hope to get paid.
( as long as he hasnt got 6+7 clubs,  lol)

Cowgomoo

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

easy shove.
Posted by harvey23

You've saw the stack sizes, right?

beaneh

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here? : You've saw the stack sizes, right?
Posted by Cowgomoo

he's the best, he never makes mistakes.

GaryQQQ

I'd double it to £66, you only need to start worrying about the unlikely 6c7c if he then shoves back at you.

(Disclaimer - I don't play cash!)

harvey23

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

I'd double it to £66, you only need to start worrying about the unlikely 6c7c if he then shoves back at you. (Disclaimer - I don't play cash!)
Posted by GaryQQQ

oh dear and what fold to a shove? lol

easy shove, villan c-c turn and donk flop looks very much like a slow played flush. if could be a blocker bet, but if it is the whole point of blocker bets are to get a cheap price to showdown, so when you raise they are going to fold. So id shove and go for max value, you range is really polarized at this point to either the NUTS or AIR so good spot imo.

BlackFish3

Jamming there would never be a bluff... errrm ever. Why would you jam for effectively £200 to win a £100 pot!

beaneh

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

Jamming there would never be a bluff... errrm ever. Why would you jam for effectively £200 to win a £100 pot!
Posted by BlackFish3

if you think he is capable of folding a small flush then gooooo googo

as is I make it like 84 and go0 and be sick in his face if he shoves. 

lynx3ffect

make it 86.33 total

scotty77

I made it 122 and he let the timer go down and fold for him.

Really confused by what he had....hes def good enough to fold a flush tho so maybe I made it too much.  Looking back 90 is prob best.

Actually I think my raise size was the worst, I think I'd prefer a shove as per Harvey's suggestion.

harvey23

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

Jamming there would never be a bluff... errrm ever. Why would you jam for effectively £200 to win a £100 pot!
Posted by BlackFish3

because when they do call they are going to call a £60-80 raise on the river as much as a shove. like i mentioned our hand is face up at that point at either a flush or air. villian is never calling our raise with TP/Two pair, the only hands they call us with are sets and flushes. So I go to value town

beaneh

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

I made it 122 and he let the timer go down and fold for him. Really confused by what he had....hes def good enough to fold a flush tho so maybe I made it too much.  Looking back 90 is prob best. Actually I think my raise size was the worst, I think I'd prefer a shove as per Harvey's suggestion.
Posted by scotty77

raise <100 imo, shove does good job of making them fold what we can actually hope to get value from. sets are not bet calling this river especially not to a shove that's so lol.

Cowgomoo

I think a shove is the worst possible decision, apart from folding obv.

BlackFish3

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here? : because when they do call they are going to call a £60-80 raise on the river as much as a shove. like i mentioned our hand is face up at that point at either a flush or air. villian is never calling our raise with TP/Two pair, the only hands they call us with are sets and flushes. So I go to value town
Posted by harvey23

no you misunderstood me. I meant why would you bluff by risking £200 to win £100, raising here does put your hand face up as a flush imo and is never a bluff. I probs just mash pot button tbh and adjust from that.

harvey23

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

I think a shove is the worst possible decision, apart from folding obv.
Posted by Cowgomoo

how much would you raise and what do you expect to get called by? given our line. When we raise the river we are pretty much shouting out "I HAVE A FLUSH EVERY1, I HAVE A FLUSH". any hand reader no matter how poor can see what we are repping. so By betting just £30-70 more what are they calling us with? only flushes and perhaps sets.

id milk them for everything for the time they call with smaller flushes and sets.

TORTUS007

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here? : oh dear and what fold to a shove? lol easy shove, villan c-c turn and donk flop looks very much like a slow played flush. if could be a blocker bet, but if it is the whole point of blocker bets are to get a cheap price to showdown, so when you raise they are going to fold. So id shove and go for max value, you range is really polarized at this point to either the NUTS or AIR so good spot imo.
Posted by harvey23

Of course you wouldn't fold to a shove.
By making a min raise, you are enticing him to shove with a King flush (maybe Q)
So your "easy shove" is the worst move both ways round.
You will lose the extra £33 most of the time.
And worse a K or Q flush could fold- and you've missed getting all his money.
I'm sure you'd make more money in the long run, my way (+garyQQQ) rather than your way.

beaneh

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here? : how much would you raise and what do you expect to get called by? given our line. When we raise the river we are pretty much shouting out "I HAVE A FLUSH EVERY1, I HAVE A FLUSH". any hand reader no matter how poor can see what we are repping. so By betting just £30-70 more what are they calling us with? only flushes and perhaps sets. id milk them for everything for the time they call with smaller flushes and sets.
Posted by harvey23

bet cawling sets is realistic

and considering how often you are derogatory about peoples 'standard' hand reading skills, why can they suddenly hand read us easily?

something stupidly small can deffo get looked up a high portion of the time by flushes if not sets.

Cowgomoo

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here? : bet cawling sets is realistic and considering how often you are derogatory about peoples 'standard' hand reading skills, why can they suddenly hand read us easily? something stupidly small can deffo get looked up a high portion of the time by flushes if not sets.
Posted by beaneh

Pretty much sums up what I was going to say.

Action_Dan

Snap fold - he's got 6 7 clubs knowing your luck mate!

beaneh

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

Snap fold - he's got 6 7 clubs knowing your luck mate!
Posted by Action_Dan

This is scotty posting, he runs golden. more so than browndog. that's just lol.

harvey23

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here? : bet cawling sets is realistic and considering how often you are derogatory about peoples 'standard' hand reading skills, why can they suddenly hand read us easily? something stupidly small can deffo get looked up a high portion of the time by flushes if not sets.
Posted by beaneh

look at the line, what hands is any1 raising the river with in position? only flushes and bluffs, assmuing both people in the hand are ok regs.

yeah something small like a min raise can get looked up, but im trying to go for max value here for the times they can fold a set or smaller flush instead of an extra £20-40 from tp/two pair.

for the pesron who said "By making a min raise, you are enticing him to shove with a King flush (maybe Q). they are never folding a K/Q high flush here unless they are teriable players, which they might from what i have seen on sky

beaneh

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here? : look at the line, what hands is any1 raising the river with in position? only flushes and bluffs, assmuing both people in the hand are ok regs. yeah something small like a min raise can get looked up, but im trying to go for max value here for the times they can fold a set or smaller flush instead of an extra £20-40 from tp/two pair. for the pesron who said "By making a min raise, you are enticing him to shove with a King flush (maybe Q). they are never folding a K/Q high flush here unless they are teriable players, which they might from what i have seen on sky
Posted by harvey23

I think a shove loses value, agree to disagree.

Eagle26

shove. if he is callin a £80-90 re-raise he is prob callin a shove too imo 

N1CK

a shove is terrible against this player if he was a muppet then i would agree that an overbet would be good, this vilain is calling a min raise 100% of the time so its how much more you can get i think 80 sounds ok

beaneh

In Response to Re: How much should I raise here?:

shove. if he is callin a £80-90 re-raise he is prob callin a shove too imo 
Posted by Eagle26

if we make it 93 it's 60 to cawl into 191.25 

if we shove it's 186.33 to cawl into 317.58 , big diff in the odds he is getting (191.25/60 [or just >3:1] vs 317.58/186.33 [or ~1.7:1])