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You are the tournament director....
Scenario that happened to me tonight in a live game at Grosvenor.
I have pocket 6's flop x6x rainbow turn A river x
me and 1 other player all in. Villain shows AA!!!
Player not in hand claims A 10
Another player claims A 2
On hearing this a player demands the cards are checked as both players are adamant they are not liars. Low and behold there are 5 aces in the deck - an extra Ace of hearts is in the pack!!!!
Bear in mind the player with AA had to draw an Ace to win this hand there should have been no more aces in the pack.
Tournament director called.
WHAT WOULD YOU DO????????
Would be interested to hear your views and would also be interested to hear if anyone knows what the actual rule really is. I will post later what actually happened.
Comments
I'd b curious to know wot d rule is
then we will discuss this 5th ace afterwards.
two part question to the answer--
did this game have an employed dealer--
or was it a ring game with players dealing in turn--
1-assuming it was an employee of the casino dealing--
the hand should be declared void with all monies (or chips) returned to those involved in the hand--
along with the dealer being taken off--(it was his duty to check the deck before starting the session)
also (not likely but possible)
2-if it was a game where the players were taking it in turn to deal then you have a problem--
because its more than likely either there was a rouge player or maybe two involved in cheating--
1. Was the additional ace the only extra card in the deck?
2. Did the player holding AA have the ace of hearts in his hand?
Wow, good story.
No idea what should happen, but if I were TD, I'd declare the hand null and void and start again with a new deck.
Will be interesting to read what the actual outcome was.
No idea what the outcome should be but if i had been already knocked out i wouldnt be happy!!
Please don't post the outcome until Grandad Tikay comes on and tells us his views because it would be great to see what an experienced and ancient TD like him would do here
Either the dealer has not done their job properly or someone has cheated and snuck the extra ace in. Sadly, i think the latter is more likely...
If the extra ace belongs to the person that "won" the hand, then suspicions are on him.
If there are cameras these can be checked for cheating.
With regards to the hand itself, it has to be voided surely, as it would seem that the person with AA has had an unfair mathmatical advantage (even if very small) Cue Vince to work out the percentages...
I presume this is a dealer dealt tournament - so collusion et al caould be considered etc but it could also be a mistake - hard to understand that one though I know!! As for getting your money back and a free entry - highly unlikely to happen m8 because 1.It proves that there is something wrong with their tournament organiasational skills, 2. You would have to care for your punters to give them their money back!! TBH if you threaten to leave they and never come back they aint gonna lose much sleep - there are always enough poker junkies out there so these poker tournaments will always continue to run
It was level 1 of the tournament, dealer dealt by casino, nobody had been eliminated or re-bought.
15 mins had elapsed so perhaps 1 orbit of the table had been completed.
Sian is not sure if the AA holder had the Ace of Hearts.
The casino dealer was adamant he checked the deck correctly before play started.
After the hand he re-checked the deck and found in front of everybody 2 AH
The additional ace was the only extra card in the pack.
Interestingly the is only one dome camera above all the tables so they may not be able to see clearly specific cards laid down at one time on all tables.
To make it clear, Sian was holding a flopped set of 6's, the second nuts on this board and the opponent drew an ace on the turn which should not have been possible with two players having folded aces, they drew a 0 outer to win the hand!
I have gone through a number of possible rulings and I can't find one that satisfies anybody.
Also relevant is this casino had a 5 fours in a deck in a cash game a few weeks ago!! The flop was x 4c 4c lol
Will be interested to hear a Tikay response and would love to hear Simon Trumper's opinion at DTD in a few weeks time.
Dave
Well it is the Dealer's job to check the deck so when 5 Aces have been found the outcome should surely be the same as I statd earlier - Bum deal and Sian should get her chips back along with the villain imo.
however nothing changes even though there had been a previous incident happen with 4 4's--
it is something that can happen at any casino and has done in the past on several occasions that i can remember--
however-- what happens in all tournaments if you notice NOW--
before the td starts by saying- dealers shuffle up and deal- the cards are spread in an arc face up usually hearts clubs diamonds spades for all to see--the dealer is responsible as the guardian at his seat for the pack to be correct that starting point--
it is wrong to think even if the player had an ace of hearts that it was he who was cheating and if he had tha ace how must he be feeling with eyes looking at him--
even though the dealer said he checked the cards--its still his responsibility-he should be in charge of all proceedings at his table--
as i said before--the hand is void--chips returned--dealer taken off (if possible break that table)--
yes there needs to be an inquiry--
but not at that time and moment--
the game needs to move on as quickly as possible for the sake of ALL the players in the tournament--
very interesting post into the conundrums of tournament poker--
does anyone know who shot wild bill hikcok--
There must be a ruling on rouge decks???
Do the casinos still take cheaters in the back room and smash thier hands with a hammer?
This is a simple one.
Any players interested in understanding the generally accepted Rules of Poker (almost no rules of Live poker are universally accepted) should spend 5 or 10 minutes reading up "Robert's Rules of Poker", the latest edition being "Version 11". google is your friend, but please do not Post a Link to RROP, as it would be non-compliant.
Here is the relevant rule......
"....If two cards of the same rank and suit are found, all action is void, and all chips in the pot are returned to the players who wagered them (subject to next rule)......"
(The "next rule" refers to when a player KNEW the deck was defective, which is a different matter of course, as a Penalty should be imposed on the miscreant).
The thing to be careful of when a "defective deck" is discovered is trying to second guess whay may have happened in earlier hands. Forget all that - what's done is done, & only the "current" hand can be corrected.
In Blackpool some years ago, myself and another guy BOTH rivered the nut flush, both of us were holding the A of Spades AND the Q of spades!
A Ruling was called, we chopped the pot, no arguments, no fuss or bother, it happens, next case. The TD (Yogi-Bear, now at DTD), then counted the cards, & there were 65 cards - which included 26 spades, two complete "sets" of spades.
NOW it all got uppity though. A player who had been near felted against me an orbit earlier when I hit a spade flush (there's a thing, with 26 spades in the deck!), was well miffed, he wanted his chips back. One could see his point, but it's not possible to rectify anything at that stage, & he had a very small brain, so would not accept the Ruling, & ended up getting himself a Time Penalty, & later, disqualificatiion, for perrsistent arguing. (He was from Yorkshire).
And yes, the Dealer should have realised her deck was 25% "bigger" than normal, but she was a newbie, & everyone makes mistakes.
I was on the wrong end of a similar situation at the Aviation in Paris once in an all-night Cash Game, same scenario, but there were 19 clubs in the deck, & two of us were holding the 5 of clubs. This time, because they were French, & I am English, I got a shocker of a Ruling. No point arguing, I just got up & left. Can't be doing with argumentative Frenchies. (The word "argumentative" there was quite unnecessary).
Only 1 orbit sp id guess that they started the whole tourny again???
The only other thing i could think of was allowing the hand to stand but cant believe they would do this
Gareth
Grandad is online!! No need to read those rules with you here Sir!!
TBH most rulings are common sense - but there are some weird ones occuring all the time which are just stupid!!
PS - See you tomorrow night, no excuses.
I suppose if the player with pocket aces had both ace of hearts he should be penalised.
Although he would not be responsible for the extra ace (unless he was an idiot) he knew the deck was defective.
The hand stood!!!
I had to rebuy when I should have doubled up, we protested the hand should have been declared void, only to be told everyone had the same disadvantage!!!!
They offered me a free meal as compensation LMAO!!!! I declined (some might say Dylan would have been happy with that ;o) ) this was declined and then offered as £20 no lose blackjack/roulette vouchers which were also declined....lol
After I tilted the rebuy off before 10pm...lol...I was offered free entry into the £50 freezout today which Dave is going to take advantage of on my behalf as quite frankly I dont want to play there. Admission of guilt??????
"....A player who knows the deck is defective has an obligation to point this out. If such a player instead tries to win a pot by taking aggressive action (trying for a freeroll), the player may lose the right to a refund, and the chips may be required to stay in the pot for the next deal......"