All Categories› Sky Poker Strategy› The Poker Clinic

You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.

You might need to refresh your page afterwards.

Sky Poker forums will be temporarily unavailable from 11pm Wednesday July 25th.
Sky Poker Forums is upgrading its look! Stay tuned for the big reveal!

the hand

freechips1freechips1
edited August 2010 in The Poker Clinic
pokerstace Small blind  400.00 400.00 29370.00
tikay1 Big blind  800.00 1200.00 15993.00
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • A
     
simuk Fold     
penguin7 Raise  2400.00 3600.00 8389.50
freechips1 Raise  7200.00 10800.00 7814.00
pokerstace Fold     
tikay1 All-in  15993.00 26793.00 0.00
penguin7 Fold     
freechips1 Fold     
tikay1 Muck     
tikay1 Win  17200.00  17200.00
tikay1 Return  9593.00 0.00 26793.00
· Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
«1

Comments

  • freechips1freechips1
    edited August 2010
    ok this is the hand and most know what mr tikay held.
    I raised to 7200 to set penguin all in but also leave myself 10 bb if small or bb rr shoved.
    Should i of pushed pre? called the allin by tikay?
    I had to put tikay on AK, AA, KK, QQ pos JJ im sure he is folding 10,10 and AQ
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    he's so nitty you HAVE to fold.

    it's really bad but you have to. just vomit a little bit whilst you do.

    you could make your 3 bet 5.2k easily and have no difference in outcomes except save yourself a little bit more.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    ok this is the hand and most know what mr tikay held. I raised to 7200 to set penguin all in but also leave myself 10 bb if small or bb rr shoved. Should i of pushed pre? called the allin by tikay? I had to put tikay on AK, AA, KK, QQ pos JJ im sure he is folding 10,10 and AQ
    Posted by freechips1
    i was railing at the time and i announced tikays hand was AA or KK imo.

    In my experience of playing tikay he only has these two hands here.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • ybyb
    edited August 2010
    I think your 3 bet size is pretty terrible tbh. I'd either shove pre (which I prefer) or make it ~5500 in which case you can fold when Tikay shoves. As played having put half my stack I'm calling this.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • freechips1freechips1
    edited August 2010
    i still stand by my fold and i think its always the correct fold but a few said in the chatbox, one a high stakes sky reg said you have to call after putting in half your stack in. Im unsure of this as the point of my raise was to set penguin allin but leave 10bb if sb/bb shoves.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : i was railing at the time and i announced tikays hand was AA or KK imo. In my experience of playing tikay he only has these two hands here.
    Posted by GREGHOGG

    I don't think TK knows there are other hands.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • tikay1tikay1
    edited August 2010

    Correct fold against me there, freechips.

    I'm happy to let "the boyz" continue to think I'm Mr Nitty-Nit-Nit, but the way that hand played out, I could ONLY re-shove with AA or KK because you were pot-stuck, & most players in your spot would feel obliged (wrongly imo) to call. And I had already sussed that.

    If peeps wanna think I'm always nitty, fine by me, but I am VERY careful when I 3-bet, as it can ONLY be done against a good player, & one who is playing deeper than you were.

    To my mind, an easy fold, but not one which many can make. Only a winning player can make the fold. 

    Nice one. 
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • tikay1tikay1
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : I don't think TK knows there are other hands.
    Posted by beaneh
    Lol, bless you. That's what you are meant to think.

    I only played AA & KK in Cardiff this week, too. ;)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • freechips1freechips1
    edited August 2010
    tikay i also see it as a standard fold. its got to me alot lately as im strugling to move from 100nl to 200nl and the fact that a 200nl+ reg who is good and i do respect said i should of called has confused me.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • tikay1tikay1
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    [QUOTE]tikay i also see it as a standard fold. its got to me alot lately as im strugling to move from 100nl to 200nl and the fact that a 200nl+ reg who is good and i do respect said i should of called has confused me.
    Posted by freechips1

    It's the fashion to say "you can't fold there", but be brave, & have the courage of your convictions. Play is generally much looser these days, especially as so many players are staked or backed, & the adage that you must protect your Tourney life has been forgotten by the subscribers to something little known, called "GroupThink". Everyone thinks it, so you need to have courage to think your own thoughts when your peers all say you are wrong.

    Be brave, & swim against the tide if you think you are right. Then you will be that rarest breed - someone who can survive in poker. Very few do, or can.

    PS - You have EVERY chance of walking into A-K there, too, & being crushed. Standard fold.

    They have things called "Hero Calls" these days. Lol at that. Try "hero folds".
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • SHANXTASHANXTA
    edited August 2010
    isnt the point that if u 3bet to ~5200 that effectively puts penquin all in anyway, but if sum1 cold 4bets u can fold, but once you've made it 7200 u have 2 call?
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • freechips1freechips1
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    I think your 3 bet size is pretty terrible tbh. I'd either shove pre (which I prefer) or make it ~5500 in which case you can fold when Tikay shoves. As played having put half my stack I'm calling this.
    Posted by yb
    you call although your reads say your against AA, KK, QQ, AK ? you have 10 bb left.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • tikay1tikay1
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    isnt the point that if u 3bet to ~5200 that effectively puts penquin all in anyway, but if sum1 cold 4bets u can fold, but once you've made it 7200 u have 2 call?
    Posted by SHANXTA
    That is 100% situation dependent.

    My bankroll survives healthily year after year because players think they have to calll there. Well sometimes they do - but it's not a default, not by ANY means, it's situation dependent.

    Forget the Maths, think of the situation. There will usually be a better spot.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • freechips1freechips1
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    isnt the point that if u 3bet to ~5200 that effectively puts penquin all in anyway, but if sum1 cold 4bets u can fold, but once you've made it 7200 u have 2 call?
    Posted by SHANXTA
    If i raise small then wont tikay see that as a squeeze and reshove with air? I know tikay sees me as a loose player.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • tikay1tikay1
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : If i raise small then wont tikay see that as a squeeze and reshove with air? I know tikay sees me as a loose player.
    Posted by freechips1
    No, that's incorrect.

    I see you as a loose player in Omaha, & you are, because you play Omaha "for fun", & a break from shove & hope Hold Em.

    In Hold Em, I dont see you as loose at all. Aggro yes, loose, no.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • SHANXTASHANXTA
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : If i raise small then wont tikay see that as a squeeze and reshove with air? I know tikay sees me as a loose player.
    Posted by freechips1
    fair point but why does a small 3bet mean weakness?
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • ybyb
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : you call although your reads say your against AA, KK, QQ, AK ? you have 10 bb left.
    Posted by freechips1
    Yep I'd still call even against a tight range having put half my chips in the middle. Basically you can fold and have < 10bbs or call and have the chance to get a stack of over 40bbs and then go ftw!

    You need less than 25% equity and you've got that, its not as much as a snap call as in a cash game because you can't reload but I'd still call regardless.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • freechips1freechips1
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : fair point but why does a small 3bet mean weakness?
    Posted by SHANXTA
    as i said he sees me as loose or so i thought, to 3bet is a great way to build your stack.
    We have played together many times (mostly omaha) and he has seen me 3 sometimes 4 bet light, so if i did 3 bet small he would prob shove with A,J or 10,10, i think then i have to fold the best hand.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    The 3 bet size pre is the problem as I said. make it 5200 or shove.

    Once you do this it's a range+maths problem.

    ~8.8 to call into ~26 =3:1 or 25%

    equity win tie      pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 27.626%   27.21% 00.42%       5590413    86133.00   { AhQh }
    Hand 1: 72.374%   71.95% 00.42%      14784969    86133.00   { QQ+ }

    equity win tie      pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 25.410%   25.06% 00.35%       3861636    54240.00   { AhQh }
    Hand 1: 74.590%   74.24% 00.35%      11440620    54240.00   { KK+ }

    equity win tie      pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 28.607%   27.30% 01.31%      11219088   537196.50   { AhQh }
    Hand 1: 71.393%   70.09% 01.31%      28801815   537196.50   { QQ+, AKs, AKo }


    Technically it's a correct call even if TK has only KK or AA.

    What that means is you increase your stack slightly every time you call. 

    THAT is a winning play. 


    The problem stems from the 3 decision/bet sizing pre. Once you make it this big don't fold, if you make it 5200 DO fold.





    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Batkin88Batkin88
    edited August 2010
    Good fold! Simple as that you call u run into a monster which ur 90 percent certain is better than urs! U fold u grit ur teeth and carry on! I would of called and lost and people would be saying how can u call that it was obvious he had aa kk !! GOOD FOLD lol 
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG
    edited August 2010

    maths vs tournament survival

    hmmm



    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • SHANXTASHANXTA
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    maths vs tournament survival hmmm
    Posted by GREGHOGG
    yep, that pretty much sums up the 2 sides 2 this debate!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • ybyb
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    maths vs tournament survival hmmm
    Posted by GREGHOGG
    But if you do whats mathematically correct you're increasing your stack size over the long run, helping you to win more tournaments!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • freechips1freechips1
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    The 3 bet size pre is the problem as I said. make it 5200 or shove. Once you do this it's a range+maths problem. ~8.8 to call into ~26 =3:1 or 25% equity win tie      pots won pots tied Hand 0: 27.626%   27.21% 00.42%       5590413    86133.00   { AhQh } Hand 1: 72.374%   71.95% 00.42%      14784969    86133.00   { QQ+ } equity win tie      pots won pots tied Hand 0: 25.410%   25.06% 00.35%       3861636    54240.00   { AhQh } Hand 1: 74.590%   74.24% 00.35%      11440620    54240.00   { KK+ } equity win tie      pots won pots tied Hand 0: 28.607%   27.30% 01.31%      11219088   537196.50   { AhQh } Hand 1: 71.393%   70.09% 01.31%      28801815   537196.50   { QQ+, AKs, AKo } Technically it's a correct call even if TK has only KK or AA. What that means is you increase your stack slightly every time you call.  THAT is a winning play.  The problem stems from the 3 decision/bet sizing pre. Once you make it this big don't fold, if you make it 5200 DO fold.
    Posted by beaneh
    if i raise to 5200 and he shoves, is his range still the same?
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    maths vs tournament survival hmmm
    Posted by GREGHOGG

    It's not about 'survival' and that's the whole point. Tournaments are about top heavy prize structures which is why you have to play for first, if we can either do a +chip play for a 40bb pot or fold and leave us 8 bb's you should do the +chip play all day long and thirty six times on sunday.


    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : if i raise to 5200 and he shoves, is his range still the same?
    Posted by freechips1

    theoretically no, nearly yes. Tis all about specific player reads etc.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • freechips1freechips1
    edited August 2010
    i think his range is wider if i only raise to 5200. 
    what is my % of winning the hand if his range is A,J+ and 10,10+ and also maybe air as he dont see me as pot stuck?
    Do i now still have to call vs his wider range?
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    i think his range is wider if i only raise to 5200.  what is my % of winning the hand if his range is A,J+ and 10,10+ and also maybe air as he dont see me as pot stuck? Do i now still have to call vs his wider range?
    Posted by freechips1

    with this player there is no 'air' air = AJ.

    Why cant you stove this yourself?!
    If you make it 5200 and he jams 16k what odds do you need to cawl? Compare that to the stoves below.

    equity  win  tie        pots won  pots tied
    Hand 0:  37.822%   28.17%  09.65%        21705783    7437604.50   { AhQh }
    Hand 1:  62.178%   52.53%  09.65%        40472688    7437604.50   { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }


    equity  win  tie        pots won  pots tied
    Hand 0:  45.422%   37.23%  08.20%        36333204    7999443.00   { AhQh }
    Hand 1:  54.578%   46.38%  08.20%        45269238    7999443.00   { TT+, AJs+, AJo+ }

    equity  win  tie        pots won  pots tied
    Hand 0:  41.378%   33.97%  07.41%        34896888    7614310.50   { AhQh }
    Hand 1:  58.622%   51.21%  07.41%        52612731    7614310.50   { 88+, AJs+, AQo+ }


    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : It's not about 'survival' and that's the whole point.Tournaments are about top heavy prize structures which is why you have to play for first, if we can either do a +chip play for a 40bb pot or fold and leave us 8 bb's you should do the +chip play all day long and thirty six times on sunday.
    Posted by beaneh
    Some players view tournament survival (i.e making a min cash) as essential to remain profitable players and therefore do not make "maths" calls that put their tournament lives at risk if they are clearly behind.

    Other types of players always go ftw every time making maths calls, and if enough volume is played over time this is too a profitable strategy and probably, but not necessarily, a more profitable strategy.

    I guess we all play mtts the way we are comfortable with tho.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : Some players view tournament survival (i.e making a min cash) as essential to remain profitable players and therefore do not make "maths" calls that put their tournament lives at risk if they are clearly behind. Other types of players always go ftw every time making maths calls, and if enough volume is played over time this is too a profitable strategy and probably, but not necessarily, a more profitable strategy. I guess we all play mtts the way we are comfortable with tho.
    Posted by GREGHOGG

    If you are only ever playing for the min cash then you will be a losing tournie player because all the money is up top, it's that simple. You cant min cash every other event, in this instance putting in half your stack and then folding is a horrific result longterm and short term.

    The idea that you can be 'clearly behind' doesn't make sense if making the call is better than folding.

    Each to their own. :-)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • freechips1freechips1
    edited August 2010
    so i have 50% equity? so i have to call?
    i raise small i have to call, if i raise big i have to call?
    My raise size was to leave me enogh to grt back into it.
    i dont think i will ever call off my tourny life when i know im a 25% dog when i have 10 ish BB left, if i would of only had 6 BB left then i always call.
    Why didnt i stove it myself? come on you know i hate computers and all about them.
    I still think this is a on the fence thing, i prob think the best move was to shove pre b4 tikay.
    My thoughts at the time was to shove but then i thought i have a tight player sat behind and im only ever getting called when im a big dog so i will leave myself enough to shove over a open limp and also open btn shove on the blinds.
    I have to be honest im still very unsure if this was a good or bad fold, as said i dont want to call off my life as a 25% dog
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
Sign In or Register to comment.