is poker gambling?

tiercel

Last nght James H. declared that people - like me - who say poker is not gambling are wrong. Well JH  I say you are wrong. There are two senses in which the word "gambling" is used . One is colloquial i.e. you come to a fork in the road, you dont know which is the right way so you take a chance - a gamble . In that sense there are times in any game or sport where you have to take a chance and  gamble ".
The poker sense tho ( and the sense which is the point here unless I misunderstood ) is that of placing money on the outcome of an event in the hope of making a  profit . In Cash poker this is true because your chips represent real money. But in tourneys it is not. To enter a tourney you pay a fee , after which no money changes hands. The chips have no cash value. You are playing to beat the others and win a prize - and prestige. I watched a game the other night in which thousands of pounds were lad on the turn of a card. That is gambling. The only end is money. The buzz of a tournament comes from the achievement - tho the prize money helps (lol). Poker is a game of strategy that can be used for gambling but it is not inherently gambling.
Many countries have banned online poker because it is generalised as gambling when a a simple change of emphasis could change the image of the game.
Now over to the lions to tear me to peaces.

J-Hartigan

In Response to is poker gambling?:

Last nght James H. declared that people - like me - who say poker is not gambling are wrong. Well JH  I say you are wrong. There are two senses in which the word "gambling" is used . One is colloquial i.e. you come to a fork in the road, you dont know which is the right way so you take a chance - a gamble . In that sense there are times in any game or sport where you have to take a chance and  gamble ". The poker sense tho ( and the sense which is the point here unless I misunderstood ) is that of placing money on the outcome of an event in the hope of making a  profit . In Cash poker this is true because your chips represent real money. But in tourneys it is not. To enter a tourney you pay a fee , after which no money changes hands. The chips have no cash value. You are playing to beat the others and win a prize - and prestige. I watched a game the other night in which thousands of pounds were lad on the turn of a card. That is gambling. The only end is money. The buzz of a tournament comes from the achievement - tho the prize money helps (lol). Poker is a game of strategy that can be used for gambling but it is not inherently gambling. Many countries have banned online poker because it is generalised as gambling when a a simple change of emphasis could change the image of the game. Now over to the lions to tear me to peaces.
Posted by tiercel

I believe I said, or certainly intended to say that poker is a game which involves gambling.  I challenge you to refute that assertion

theneons

i think pistols at dawn tomorrow can settle this.

sara36dd08

  hi

  yes i fear you may get ripped apart

 i disagree with you all poker is a gamble

 in tournys the gamble is that your entry fee which is real money is going to get you to the end to take others peoples entry fees that are the prize

so you are still gamberling

your chips in a tourny are your money that you gamble with

ckd

In Response to is poker gambling?:

Last nght James H. declared that people - like me - who say poker is not gambling are wrong. Well JH  I say you are wrong. There are two senses in which the word "gambling" is used . One is colloquial i.e. you come to a fork in the road, you dont know which is the right way so you take a chance - a gamble . In that sense there are times in any game or sport where you have to take a chance and  gamble ". The poker sense tho ( and the sense which is the point here unless I misunderstood ) is that of placing money on the outcome of an event in the hope of making a  profit . In Cash poker this is true because your chips represent real money. But in tourneys it is not. To enter a tourney you pay a fee , after which no money changes hands. The chips have no cash value. You are playing to beat the others and win a prize - and prestige. I watched a game the other night in which thousands of pounds were lad on the turn of a card. That is gambling. The only end is money. The buzz of a tournament comes from the achievement - tho the prize money helps (lol). Poker is a game of strategy that can be used for gambling but it is not inherently gambling. Many countries have banned online poker because it is generalised as gambling when a a simple change of emphasis could change the image of the game. Now over to the lions to tear me to peaces.
Posted by tiercel

yes poker is gambling no matter if its cash mtt or stt its all gambling you are playing for money
lotto you pay your money then thats it but it still gambling
mtt are are gambling with the buy in to increse your money

hope this helps

theneons

MTT = gambling

cash = not gambling.

pod1

devils advacate here, what if you are playing with play money, still playing poker but not for money. surley then poker can be played WITHOUT gambling. gambling is only when a wager is put on an outcome be it no balls in cricket (topical) snow on christmas day etc. you cant call the weather gambling!!! poker is just another vessel to which gambling can be used. phil

tiercel

 a ) watch the repeat to see what you actually said
b ) review and define your definition of gambling ( in the general sense all life is a gamble ) and it is up to you to refute my assertion . As to refuting your statement - I thnk I have.
By the way  as you are a film buff  - best film that I have seen - War and Peace the two part Russian Version using the whole Russian amy as extras.
 Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

In Response to is poker gambling? : I believe I said, or certainly intended to say that poker is a game which involves gambling.  I challenge you to refute that assertion
Posted by J-Hartigan

tiercel

 On that basis if you pay to enter a sports tounament that has prize money the athlete is gambling ? How about fairground booths or coconut shies ?

Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

  hi   yes i fear you may get ripped apart  i disagree with you all poker is a gamble  in tournys the gamble is that your entry fee which is real money is going to get you to the end to take others peoples entry fees that are the prize so you are still gamberling your chips in a tourny are your money that you gamble with
Posted by sara36dd08

MadHorse

Poker is gambling because you'll never know what hands your opponant has and poker has recieved such pluadiits for the falseness of "being able to read" your oppenants hands, FFS COME ON! its absolutely ludacris and scientists will tell you all this exellent hand reading is B/S.

If you're into poker its because you've won a decent pot starting out but no one ends up a long term winner and thats why every poker fan trys to convince themselves by reading books, telling themselves you can teach your self to read hands in the fear of actually coming around to the realisation that poker is just LUCK and luck alone.

Does get on my nerves that people say poker is the self proclaimed prophecy and the art to all intelligence and those who play poker are better than the general public, if i pulled out a deck of cards and said raise 50 times with 50 different two cards in my hand at random i bet you that you couldn't guess at least 5 cards right!? oh wait but its meant to be different  story when you're sitting a table right? the word raise actually means something then...complete and utter tosh.

The_Don90

In my personal opinion

POKER IS NOT GAMBLING,

gambling in my opinion is betting on something i have no control off. For example betting on a football game, horse race or the lotto.

However when it comes to poker, i have control, i can get out of a hand whenever i like unless im all in, i can get my opponent off a hand if need be. Im betting on what i can control based on the information given to me. Is that gambling, in my humble opinion no.

DOHHHHHHH

It's a pointless debate, poker is what it is.

Brilliant mad-horse btw   lol

If someone is raising 100% of hands over a sample size of 50 hands, it would be pointless, un-necessary, and I agree, impossible to read his hand. But you wouldn't need to, you would just put the guy on any 2 cards, narrow the range of hands u play, and take his money time n time again.

Some players are un-readable, they r normally brilliant or auwful, 99.99% of the time, they're auwful.

tiercel

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n Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

Poker is gambling because you'll never know what hands your opponant has and poker has recieved such pluadiits for the falseness of "being able to read" your oppenants hands, FFS COME ON! its absolutely ludacris and scientists will tell you all this exellent hand reading is B/S. If you're into poker its because you've won a decent pot starting out but no one ends up a long term winner and thats why every poker fan trys to convince themselves by reading books, telling themselves you can teach your self to read hands in the fear of actually coming around to the realisation that poker is just LUCK and luck alone. Does get on my nerves that people say poker is the self proclaimed prophecy and the art to all intelligence and those who play poker are better than the general public, if i pulled out a deck of cards and said raise 50 times with 50 different two cards in my hand at random i bet you that you couldn't guess at least 5 cards right!? oh wait but its meant to be different  story when you're sitting a table right? the word raise actually means something then...complete and utter tosh.
Posted by MadHorse

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

In my personal opinion POKER IS NOT GAMBLING, gambling in my opinion is betting on something i have no control off. For example betting on a football game, horse race or the lotto. However when it comes to poker, i have control, i can get out of a hand whenever i like unless im all in, i can get my opponent off a hand if need be. Im betting on what i can control based on the information given to me. Is that gambling, in my humble opinion no.
Posted by The_Don90

Yes, you have a degree of control.  Yes, you can pick spots where the odds are strongly in your favour.

But, whether it be a MTT, STT or cash game, there is rarely a situation where we are all-in with a 100% lock on the hand.  For example, if I shove with AA pre-flop, suspecting that my opponent has an underpair, I know I'm 80% favourite to win the hand.  But he still has a 1/5 chance of improving and stacking me.

So, I'm gambling.  It's so-called "smart gambling" because it's a +EV play, but it's still gambling.

tiercel

 No debate is pointless - because it stretches your brain and makes you think and they are fun.
It is also important in terms of peoples' attitude to the game.




n Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

It's a pointless debate, poker is what it is. Brilliant mad-horse btw   lol
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

tiercel

This is what I mean.
This situation in a cash game is gambling in the legal sense because the chips are real money you can pull out and cash them in . This is what so many governments frown upon. But in a tournament the chips are just a playing tool - as are the cards . You are gambling in the general sense because you are jumpng nto the unknown but in the legal sense it is not because the chips you hold are worthless beyond the game - they are not cashable - in real terms.



In Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

In Response to Re: is poker gambling? : Yes, you have a degree of control.  Yes, you can pick spots where the odds are strongly in your favour. But, whether it be a MTT, STT or cash game, there is rarely a situation where we are all-in with a 100% lock on the hand.  For example, if I shove with AA pre-flop, suspecting that my opponent has an underpair, I know I'm 80% favourite to win the hand.  But he still has a 1/5 chance of improving and stacking me. So, I'm gambling.  It's so-called "smart gambling" because it's a +EV play, but it's still gambling.
Posted by J-Hartigan

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

 a ) watch the repeat to see what you actually said b ) review and define your definition of gambling ( in the general sense all life is a gamble ) and it is up to you to refute my assertion . As to refuting your statement - I thnk I have. By the way  as you are a film buff  - best film that I have seen - War and Peace the two part Russian Version using the whole Russian amy as extras.  Response to Re: is poker gambling? :
Posted by tiercel

a) I made it clear in an earlier post what I intended to say.

b) I'll go with the following definition, courtesy of the (n)ever accurate Wikipedia...

"Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period."

Sounds like poker to me!

Re: War and Peace - I assume you mean the four-part epic directed by Sergei Bondarchuk?  Yes, it's an outstanding work of cinema.  I have the five-disc DVD box set released in the US by Image Entertainment.  Fortunately, it's subtitled rather than dubbed

The_Don90

In Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

In Response to Re: is poker gambling? : Yes, you have a degree of control.  Yes, you can pick spots where the odds are strongly in your favour. But, whether it be a MTT, STT or cash game, there is rarely a situation where we are all-in with a 100% lock on the hand.  For example, if I shove with AA pre-flop, suspecting that my opponent has an underpair, I know I'm 80% favourite to win the hand.  But he still has a 1/5 chance of improving and stacking me. So, I'm gambling.  It's so-called "smart gambling" because it's a +EV play, but it's still gambling.
Posted by J-Hartigan

I see your point,

However i stick to my opinions, i often avoid big pots early in MTT's i also try to avoid going all in too early in a hand for the reasons above, however this does give control does it not ?

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

This is what I mean. This situation in a cash game is gambling in the legal sense because the chips are real money you can pull out and cash them in . This is what so many governments frown upon. But in a tournament the chips are just a playing tool - as are the cards . You are gambling in the general sense because you are jumpng nto the unknown but in the legal sense it is not because the chips you hold are worthless beyond the game - they are not cashable - in real terms. In Response to Re: is poker gambling? :
Posted by tiercel

Using the Primo as an example, in real terms, your aim is to turn £33 into £3000+

To achieve this objective, you have to gamble.

As the tournament progresses, regardless of your ability, you have less and less control over proceedings and are reliant on fate siding with you and not your opponents.

One other point: while the chips in a tournament don't have a cash value, but they do have value.  There are various software applications that will assess your equity in a tournament based on your stack, the total number of chips in play and the pay-out structure.

unknown_username

Poker is a game of ''considered wager'' ........same as Backgammon.

tiercel

 re War and Peace. Yes I do mean that version. I saw it in two huge parts in my local cinema  - on my own. Not much profit there for an amazing film .
As for the Wikipedia quote - isn''t that precisely my point n the difference between cash and tournament ?
Oh and dont trust Wiki  . There is a olt of wrong info there. e.g An artcle on Bruce Forsyths grandfather said he was a bigamist. He wasn't just an adulterer - twice over.  Use the OED.


In Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

In Response to Re: is poker gambling? : a) I made it clear in an earlier post what I intended to say. b) I'll go with the following definition, courtesy of the (n)ever accurate Wikipedia... " Gambling is the wagering  of money  or something of material value  (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period." Sounds like poker to me! Re: War and Peace - I assume you mean the four-part epic directed by Sergei Bondarchuk?  Yes, it's an outstanding work of cinema.  I have the five-disc DVD box set released in the US by Image Entertainment.  Fortunately, it's subtitled rather than dubbed
Posted by J-Hartigan

Kiwini4u

Poker may or may not be gambling, but look how many of us are addicted to it.  Its a sunny Bank holiday and what are we doing? either playing poker or posting/reading the forum or possible even both lol. 

Now tell me how that isn't an addiction:)

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

 re War and Peace. Yes I do mean that version. I saw it in two huge parts in my local cinema  - on my own. Not much profit there for an amazing film . As for the Wikipedia quote - isn''t that precisely my point n the difference between cash and tournament ? Oh and dont trust Wiki  . There is a olt of wrong info there. e.g An artcle on Bruce Forsyths grandfather said he was a bigamist. He wasn't just an adulterer - twice over.  Use the OED. In Response to Re: is poker gambling? :
Posted by tiercel

You've clearly missed my post about why I believe tournament poker is gambling (using Primo as an example) - and my (un)subtle dig at Wikipedia's inaccuracy!

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

Poker may or may not be gambling, but look how many of us are addicted to it.  Its a sunny Bank holiday and what are we doing? either playing poker or posting/reading the forum or possible even both lol.  Now tell me how that isn't an addiction:)
Posted by Kiwini4u

Good point, well made, Steve!

With that in mind, I'm going to log-out and experience the great outdoors...

See you all this evening.

tiercel

ISoftware can prove anything . It can show you can be blown apart by a bomb then get up and carry on fighting. That is meaningless.
I dont enter a tournament to turn a small amount of money into a large amount of money. I pay the entry fee so I can play the game and test my skills against other players. And I base my success against my finishing position.  To play to turn 33 into 3000 based on gambling alone represents silly odds. To pay £33 to enter a game ( as I might for any computor game ) is to pay for an hours (?) entertainment not to turn it into a profit . That is a bonus.  Its all about attitude.


n Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

In Response to Re: is poker gambling? : Using the Primo as an example, in real terms, your aim is to turn £33 into £3000+ To achieve this objective, you have to gamble. As the tournament progresses, regardless of your ability, you have less and less control over proceedings and are reliant on fate siding with you and not your opponents. One other point: while the chips in a tournament don't have a cash value, but they do have value.  There are various software applications that will assess your equity in a tournament based on your stack, the total number of chips in play and the pay-out structure.
Posted by J-Hartigan

Kiwini4u

In Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

In Response to Re: is poker gambling? : Good point, well made, Steve! With that in mind, I'm going to log-out and experience the great outdoors... See you all this evening.
Posted by J-Hartigan

Me too, until the 2.20 deep stack lol

tiercel

You mean your not taking your laptop lol.
I'm in he great outdoors

n Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

In Response to Re: is poker gambling? : Good point, well made, Steve! With that in mind, I'm going to log-out and experience the great outdoors... See you all this evening.
Posted by J-Hartigan

LOL_RAISE

yes its gambling but that doesnt mean that you cant have an edge.

flip a coin heads you win £10 tails you lose £5. this is gambling but you'd still snap anyones hand off if they offered it to you.

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: is poker gambling?:

ISoftware can prove anything . It can show you can be blown apart by a bomb then get up and carry on fighting. That is meaningless. I dont enter a tournament to turn a small amount of money into a large amount of money. I pay the entry fee so I can play the game and test my skills against other players. And I base my success against my finishing position.  To play to turn 33 into 3000 based on gambling alone represents silly odds. To pay £33 to enter a game ( as I might for any computor game ) is to pay for an hours (?) entertainment not to turn it into a profit . That is a bonus.  Its all about attitude. n Response to Re: is poker gambling? :
Posted by tiercel

OK, this will be my last post on this topic, because I really need to get out and have a life!!!

You're entitled to play for fun and test your skills against others.  The most important thing about poker is to enjoy playing the game.  And you clearly do.  But I wonder how many people would enter an event like Primo if it didn't have a four-figure cash prize at the end of it?  I believe the attraction of tournament poker is the possibility of receiving a big reward for a relatively small wager.

For the record, I did not say that winning a poker tournament involves gambling alone - but gambling/luck is a major factor.  Unless players are deep, final tables of poker tournaments can be very boring to watch, because the dynamic of the game (stack sizes, blinds, etc.) dictates the action.  (I've lost count of the number of times I've seen 99 race against AK!)

Finally, your point about computer software is a bit odd.  An application like PokerStove can genuinely assess your equity in a tournament, helping to influence your decision-making in the late stages.  For people who play MTTs with a view to making a profit, it's a useful tool which shouldn't be dismissed as meaningless.

pod1

if you just wanted to play for the skill and entertainment value then just play on the free chip tables!!! come on be honest the money makes it more interesting lol

unknown_username

Have you posted an argument with your wife Tiercel? "I don't gamble too much love I play poker". I don't think gamblers anonymous would be on your side mate.